Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Principality of Wallachia

[SerbianInfantry]

I am going to kill myself... Or atleast cry myself to death...

[Matthæus]

Saxons werea aslo "imported" by the bosnian kings to work in the bosnian mines of central bosnia.

correct. there will be "Saxon mines" amongst buildings in Bosnia. but dont expect any "Saxon" unit because there weren't any.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

correct. there will be "Saxon mines" amongst buildings in Bosnia. but dont expect any "Saxon" unit because there weren't any.

Will Hungary have these buildings too, in Erdely? Or will the saxons there be represented with a different building?

[Wallachian]

It's interesting because it seems that in Bosnia and Serbia the saxons seem to be associated with mining while in Transilvania and Wallachia they are more known as merchants and tradesmen (cannon makers, blacksmiths etc.).

[matija191]

well in medieval Croatia saxons are gunners and cannoniers, experts for siege warfare in croatian army (alongside hussite mercenaries and Italians).....

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

These are very interesting points.

Would it actually be possible to have scripted in Saxon migrations, and upon them entering a region, the player could be given an option as to what type of economic/industrial purpose they could serve; like mining, banking, siege building, printing, masonry etc.? Like, could a player build say a trading post, to boost Saxon populations which could just be measured by the populations' general growth, then, when the population has risen by say 1000, the player could be given an option to give these Saxons greater rights within the community, allowing them to take up a number of professions which the player could choose by constructing either a Saxon's quarters for banking and markets, a Saxon mines for mining, or a Saxon's guild for siege engineering etc.

It could be a nifty way for a player to customize their economy... Just an idea to be tossed around?

[Romano-Dacis]

These are very interesting points.

Would it actually be possible to have scripted in Saxon migrations, and upon them entering a region, the player could be given an option as to what type of economic/industrial purpose they could serve; like mining, banking, siege building, printing, masonry etc.? Like, could a player build say a trading post, to boost Saxon populations which could just be measured by the populations' general growth, then, when the population has risen by say 1000, the player could be given an option to give these Saxons greater rights within the community, allowing them to take up a number of professions which the player could choose by constructing either a Saxon's quarters for banking and markets, a Saxon mines for mining, or a Saxon's guild for siege engineering etc.

It could be a nifty way for a player to customize their economy... Just an idea to be tossed around?

I disagree with the idea of "Saxon migration." The Saxons weren't migrants but formal colonists and therefore their population growth was not organic in many cases.

If we don't treat Saxon buildings as just normal buildings, we could instead implement them with the "Guild" system so that it lets you customize cities with them. That is the easiest way I see in implementing a more special "Saxon" system.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

I disagree with the idea of "Saxon migration." The Saxons weren't migrants but formal colonists and therefore their population growth was not organic in many cases.

If we don't treat Saxon buildings as just normal buildings, we could instead implement them with the "Guild" system so that it lets you customize cities with them. That is the easiest way I see in implementing a more special "Saxon" system.

Thats a good point. The key thing I was trying to get across was that since the Saxons seem to have excelled in so many different professions, all of which assisted their sponsored monarchs, the player in Tsardoms would enjoy choosing how to apply his/her (let's face it, his) local Saxon population to a task that they needed more.

[Bosnian_King]

I read about those Saxons in a reliable book about the medieval Bosnian state written by Lovrenovic Dubravko.
I also read there that the "Dubrovcani" or the citizens of Dubrovnik (or how the Bosnian ruler Kulin called them in 1189. called them:" Gradjanima Dubrovcanima") that they had their own Colony within the Bosnian kingdom and this Colony was situated in Srebrenica. I don't know what it meant in that time to have a "colony" but I think it is some place or part of a city where a lot of merchants and politicians from Dubrovnik lived. Those colonies they had in central Bosnia also.


It is interesting that I got a nephew in the central bosnian town of Kakanj. He gots a Saxon surname and his grandfather was a miner, his grandgranfather was also a miner etc. etc. It is goot possible that he is one of those Saxons families which were imported.

[matija191]

I read about those Saxons in a reliable book about the medieval Bosnian state written by Lovrenovic Dubravko.
I also read there that the "Dubrovcani" or the citizens of Dubrovnik (or how the Bosnian ruler Kulin called them in 1189. called them:" Gradjanima Dubrovcanima") that they had their own Colony within the Bosnian kingdom and this Colony was situated in Srebrenica. I don't know what it meant in that time to have a "colony" but I think it is some place or part of a city where a lot of merchants and politicians from Dubrovnik lived. Those colonies they had in central Bosnia also.

well the Dubrovnik had monopol over mines and mining in Bosnia

[Bosnian_King]

well the Dubrovnik had monopol over mines and mining in Bosnia

No the mines of Bosnia were under direct control of the Bosnian kings. But the republic of Dubrovnik had trade connections with Bosnia from the time before Kulin till the fall of Bosnia. So there were big interests for Dubrovnik in Bosnia for lets say 300-500 years. 300 years for sure! ( we know this from the charter of Kulin)

For example also the trade route between Serbia and Dubrovnik went over the territory of the Bosnian state in 1204 already. We know this because of the charter of the Bosnian ruler Ninoslav who wrote to Dubrovnik about the laws which had to be respected by Serbs and by the citizens of Dubrovnik; which he called "Vlachs".

May be this detail is interesting for the map: The trade between Serbia and Dubrovnik went over the territory of Bosnia.

[son of romans]

This roster is ended or maybe more.

[Visarion]

very interesting ideas here...

[Wallachian]

I have a suggestion for another Wallachian trade building. Weaving and embroidery was an important local industry so a building a weaver's building which would increase trade income would be a great addition.

Trade guilds existed from early 15th century for weaving of woollen cloth, coat and hat making, although most costume items were still made at home. In certain locations a whole villages was involved in the production of certain items (e.g Suman in Sarbesti). Middle age trade documents show that leather products were already traded widely between the regions of present day Romania (Walachia, Moldavia, and Transylvania). The Furriers' guild in Cluj was given its first charter in 1446.


Embroidery flourished in Middle Ages, at courts, in monasteries, and on feudal estates Ecclesiastical embroideries still exist from the reign of Stephan cel Mare (1457-1504). These were produced in a workshop either in Suceava or Putna monastery and were based on the style of Moldavia fresco paintings. These use twisted gold and silver thread. The existence of local courts in Bucovina, Argeş and Muscel resulted in the development of local folk styles. Embroidery was especially rich in Gorj, Prahova, Lugoj, Pădureni, Apuseni Mountains

[Visarion]

also Wallachia or Tara Romaneasca made trade with Transylvania, Hungary, Moldavia, Poland by land and Ragusa, Genoa and Venice by sea... since Mircea the Elder or as we call him Mircea cel Batran (1355-1418)... with the Ottomans too in times of peace...

[son of romans]

I hope that Cetatea Alba and Chilia will be from begining rebelion but after conquering they will bring much money,and yes trade roads were important.

[Romano-Dacis]

Trade will be properly represented and using historical figures as well. The largest cities in the region will actually be Brasov, Chilia, and Cetatea Alba. Almost all of Moldavia is rebel at the start date and we're trying to set it up so the northern part of Moldavia is actually controlled by a shadow faction! The player starts as Voievod Bogdan in Maramures.

[son of romans]

Trade will be properly represented and using historical figures as well. The largest cities in the region will actually be Brasov, Chilia, and Cetatea Alba. Almost all of Moldavia is rebel at the start date and we're trying to set it up so the northern part of Moldavia is actually controlled by a shadow faction! The player starts as Voievod Bogdan in Maramures.

Seems corect historicaly but if we a so week I hope at last our armies to be the best

[Romano-Dacis]

I have a concern and I would appreciate it if I could get a second opinion on this (is mircea around? Maybe CiviC?)

Basically, we're all familiar with the image of the "Wallachian rider", a woodcut image from the 16th century showing a Wallachian lancer. The print was made in Holland.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now, the strange thing is, I found an image of "Mamelukes" on Wikipedia... and, well, I'll let you look at it and decide...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So now we have an image with "Mamelukes" depicted in Wallachian battle dress. The question is simple: which of the following interpretations is correct:
a) The depiction from Holland is wrong, and copied off of a depiction of Mamelukes.
b) The depiction of the Mamelukes is wrong, and copied off of familiar designs for Balkan light cavalry, especially Wallachian cavalry.
c) They are both right; the "Mamelukes" in question are probably Wallachian auxiliaries in the Ottoman army, wrongly identified as "Christian slaves."

I am of the opinion that most likely it is a labeling error in the second depiction. Furthermore, take a look at the heraldry on the shield of the middle "mameluke." Why would he have the Byzantine coat-of-arms on his shield?

[Wallachian]

Definetly wouldn't go for a), because there are descriptions and other images which confirm how the Wallachian cavalry looked like, especially with the kyte shield and the typical hat. I would say either b) or c) but leaning more towards c). The reason is because we know that Wallachian troops fought in Ottoman armies on many occasions so it wouldn't be too difficult to see these guys (which obviously don't have a Turkic appearance) in an Ottoman army and assume that they are Christian slaves.

If a Westerner with an untrained eye would have heard that Mamelukes are part of the Ottoman army and then later on saw these guys with a rather exotic look, he might have put one and two together and assumed these are the Mamelukes. This sounds preatty feasible to me.

Also, wouldn't a Mamluke have more Eastern-looking clothing, maybe a turban (I know this soudns a bit stereotypical)?
These guys seem to have more traditional balkan clothing, especially the famous hats )