are human beings good?

[Lord de Lyonesse]

I just wanted to know what TWC's members thought. After a long debate with my friend (he arguing that we were immoral and in need of restraining, while I arguing that people are free to live how they want but are... deep deep down good. Even Hitler probably was 'good' he was corrupted by hatred and this led to dominate his life.

I'm sorry if I insult anyone with my thoughts about 'evil' I just cannot understand how someone could be 'immoral' I think all bad things are simply side effects to an abscence of love.

[Helm]

They're fairly good providing they're in a comfortable environment, but fairly easily manipulated by ruling authorities.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

So from that in a round about way they are not?

I must say since my time studying sociology I have turned ever towards the way of anarchism. Surely the life you are experiencing is uniquley yours and any attempt to reduce that automony is tyranny? I really do believe humans are born tabula-rasa - although human genetics seems to disagree with me. I don't know, i'm just a guy who would like everything to be nice for everyone! We sent man to the moon yet we cannot feed ourselves... The more I look at the world the more suicidal I become.. I just want everyone to be happy :/

[Helm]

The most you can do is focuss on making people happy in your own life, starting with yourself so best to avoid being depressed over things you have no control over.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

The most you can do is focuss on making people happy in your own life, starting with yourself so best to avoid being depressed over things you have no control over.

Too much empathy is my problem, lately I have been listening to Nirvana alot. So I guess that has fed my depression :/ It's true that we are simply animals but religion states we are the only creature to have a exhibit notions of a 'soul' or how I prefer to call it, personal identity. All of us have our own unique traits that make us who we are. I don't wish to navigate away from the topic in question, but if we are all creatures with such souls, with a guiding moral compass and an ability to understand right from wrong and good from evil why does evil exist, why does mankind persist in finding new ways to kill itself? Why does mankind express both extreme love and yet extreme hate?

Are humans good or bad?

I really do think, hand on heart, we are good. If you two people who are replying to this thread were in need of food or shelter I would happily offer it to you. I don't know you other than the avatars in which you use to navigate through this site. I will do it unconditionally. Quite frankly it is a phenomenon I have engaged in time and time again without really knowing why.

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

Don't forget that we are just animals with instincts. Those instincts are evil (greed lust hate etc etc etc). So yeah only rational tought can bring good.

But starve a rational human who said he would never steal and set him on the loose. You'll then see what we truly are, just animals with too much self consciousness.

[Helm]

We are animals with instinct but we can reason as well, so a mixed bag.

[Nevins]

I just wanted to know what TWC's members thought. After a long debate with my friend (he arguing that we were immoral and in need of restraining, while I arguing that people are free to live how they want but are... deep deep down good. Even Hitler probably was 'good' he was corrupted by hatred and this led to dominate his life.

I'm sorry if I insult anyone with my thoughts about 'evil' I just cannot understand how someone could be 'immoral' I think all bad things are simply side effects to an abscence of love.

I'm guessing that you are ascribing to the theory of every human is born inherently good, and then is turned evil by the things that they go through in life? I guess that on the surface that this is true, as desperation often causes people to do things that we consider more than a bit reprehensible.

The problem lies in the countless people who are simply "evil". Take Ted Bundy for instance. He was raised by his maternal grandparents, went to college, was considered handsome and incredible charismatic. He also managed to seduce, rape and kill 20+ women over the course of several years. He was not abused, he was not neglected, he led a relatively normal childhood and healthy upbringing, but he still raped and killed 20+ women. Nothing turned him evil, he simply was evil.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

Nothing turned him evil, he simply was evil.

Hmm, I could bring up the notion that evil is simply subjective. The nazis that were present during the Nuremburg trials often commonly accounted that there actions from the years 1933 - 1945 were, at least in their minds benevolent. They were eliminating the world of the non-aryans. It's sick what people do to try and improve people's life. I think Iron Maiden had an album called 'the thin line between love and hate' perhaps it is this line which has often been crossed by the insane or deluded. Yet who is to say they are deluded? I don't know. I accept killing is wrong as is any real universal law, yet I cease to believe that good prevails all the time when, as Charles Darwin noted the woodwevil bores its eggs into a live caterpillar and 'buzzing off' to let is hatchlings feed of the poor caterpillar. I guess that's a more spiritual notion.. I guess you're viewing me as a bit shaken, truth is I just really dislike the world as a whole at the moment, I want to try and help as many people as I can being born into a fairly wealthy middle-class family but everytime I do, people either scorn or look down upon or simply laugh. It's as if people themselves want to limit the happiness present within the world.

Ted Bundy probably underwent some mentally disturbing event, if not that then perhaps he was simply bored. Many people do terrible things in the sake of eleviating social inactiveness. Child killer cases are particularilly (I always spell that word wrong!) interesting, in the sense that it de-rails the theory of tabula-rasa. Perhaps 'evil' is genetic. I dislike the notion of 'evil' though, perhaps even the notion of good is itself flawed, as to some people killing may be justified. A war example, in that system all humanitarian wishes and traditions are put aside in place is an utter frenzy to kill a man you've never known. Perhaps all life, as Bill Hicks once said, is subjected and the reality in which we view are but dremas of our external selves. Reachable only following the ultimate ending of death.

Forgive me if I seem a little deep, its just this notion has been troubling me, I'm an RS studen hoping to get a good enough grade to get into Southampton University... which looks bleak but yet still possible. Researching the topic and actually observing life through the eyes within the context of thought in which we are all focused on has made me realise that perhaps life is simply meaningless... goo/evil simply essences of the randomness of quantum space... I still ultimately believe in a deep goodness but increasingly I grow sceptical... Perhaps my pre-requisite of 'good' comes from my hidden, almost supressed sense of faith? I hope this thread doesnt get torn down for my over-churned rambling its simply what I wish to display and offer people to comment on.

For after death, life is judged by those who yet live.

[Poach]

Humans are a product of their environment. If raised well, by good parents and given a good education, the human being will most likely turn out to be good. If raised poorly, by neglectful parents and left to squander his/her education, the human being will turn out bad.

Hitler was not born evil, he was not destined to do what he did. His home life was turbulent, he didn't do well at school and his father beat his mother. His dream was shattered in Vienna and he was forced to live in poverty. Following this he was subjected to the Great War, and like many at the time, thought the war was lost by the politicians and bankers stabbing the country in the back (he didn't invent those issues, they were present in society following the war). He then lived in post-war Germany, which was itself a turbulent and dangerous place, with left and right wing militias active and the economy crippled from paying reparations. He hardly had it easy in life, he went through things that would break an average man.

So, in response to the OP: Humans are not born with a decided inclination for good or evil. They have a personality, but this too is heavily influenced by their upbringing and life. A stable and supporting family, a good education and a safe life will bring out the best in any human being. A fractured of broken family, a wasted education and an unsafe life will bring out the worst.

Obviously that is extremely simplified, as you get well educated and well mannered criminals and you get uneducated people raised by a single parent who are fine upstanding people, but these are again all due to factors in their upbringing and current life.

[HansDuet]

Humans are not "good" nor "evil" but merely human. Those two are just concepts.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

Humans are not "good" nor "evil" but merely human. Those two are just concepts.

Ha, define human. It is easy to explain what we are, but try how we are? why we are? or even why we do?
Then you will cross the world into the main topic. So far though I believe you are right. Your message is simple yet effective in explaining the whole thing in a roundabout way.. Not as deep as I hope but I value your contribution.


I'm off to bed now as my mind and perhaps my 'soul' needs rest.

[Adrian]

Good and Evil are at most personal concepts that don't apply in the real world I personally don't believe in good evil or in morality.

Humanity is a miracle of evolution a miracle of the universe I just find it well special a creature with our powers evolved from the muck on Earth.

As grunt would say "I emmmmmmm humannnnnnnnnnn"

[Helm]

And the universe is a miracle is of the gods of course.

[Adrian]

And the universe is a miracle is of the gods of course.

Yeah .... right and the "gods" sized my dick up at birth I wanted a 30 cm one or larger like blackzilla but ehhh life and these gods.




The universe is the ultimate "thing" it is life it is death it is our very existence
we exist here we are part of the universe as it is part of us so in some way we are the universe the conscious part of it.

Im no primitive worshiping the moon or sky gods like some others seem to I don't worship anything but love humanity and what we are.

[Helm]

Yeah .... right and the "gods" sized my dick up at birth I wanted a 30 cm one or larger like blackzilla but ehhh life and these gods.




The universe is the ultimate "thing" it is life it is death it is our very existence
we exist here we are part of the universe as it is part of us so in some way we are the universe the conscious part of it.

Im no primitive worshiping the moon or sky gods like some others seem to I don't worship anything but love humanity and what we are.

My gods are all sophisticated and . They exist as part of the natural elements of the perceivable universe while simulataneously expanding beyond the known universe while existing in a state and form unimaginable to the human mind. They're not things we could hold a conversation with, yet we're intimately linked into them in some kind of...really mysterious way.

[Adrian]

My gods are all sophisticated and . They exist as part of the natural elements of the perceivable universe while simulataneously expanding beyond the known universe while existing in a state and form unimaginable to the human mind. They're not things we could hold a conversation with, yet we're intimately linked into them in some kind of...really mysterious way.

The fact that you need a god or gods shows me what I need to know about you that you need to be ruled you can't contend with free will with being responsabile for yourself you need someone to tell you good do that but more likely you need something to fall back on if you fail you need hope and you look for it in "gods" not in yourself where we as an intelligent species should look.

[Arch-hereticK]

My gods are all sophisticated and . They exist as part of the natural elements of the perceivable universe while simulataneously expanding beyond the known universe while existing in a state and form unimaginable to the human mind. They're not things we could hold a conversation with, yet we're intimately linked into them in some kind of...really mysterious way.

So there are forces that are currently beyond our understanding, you have decided to label these forces arbitrarily while claiming they are unimaginable. None of that seems convoluted or like wishful-thinking to you?

[Helm]

So there are forces that are currently beyond our understanding, you have decided to label these forces arbitrarily while claiming they are unimaginable. None of that seems convoluted or like wishful-thinking to you?

You can imagine them in the form of a guy with short pants and a hammer if you like but that's not really what they would be like "in the flesh" so to speak. But I would say it's arrogant to assume we with our very limited powers of understanding can possibly know everything about anything, not unless we evolve/develop into some kind of higher state of being. So it's really just a good mental exercise in truly appreciating mysteries of the universe and nature for what they really are. It's also kind of neat to be able to bring the old gods back in some kind of reasonable seeming form. From what I've read this somewhat close to what the Pagans believed in anyway.

[Archus]

humans are self-aware, this is a far more sophisticated idea than good and evil, it means we have a choice