Cavalry. What is their role.

[Haakon]

Just wondering how will cavalry play in DOTS compared with other mods. In stainless Steel I attacked a city with a full stack and only 3 spear units and one general defending. After killing the spear units I had about 400-ish heavy infantry attack the general and they general lasted for at least a full minute.

Am I the only one who thinks generals/faction heirs/leaders last too long?

[Messremb]

Well...hopefully they'll stick to the retrofit stats and not the nonsense every mod seems to invent for itself. You can edit them as you please anyway, no worries. So....
Shhhh! Let them work.

[Resurrection]

Well this is more question of traits rather than cavalry. Actually it has nothing to do with cavalry at all since GBs usually are set differently than other cavalry (2 hp for starters...). And with the traits general can have like 10 hp himself so he would be as tough as like 20 of his guards hence he lasts so long... Try beating Nazguls in TATW and you will see what that means. Even if all of their bodyguards die the Nazgul alone will kick many many asses before he finally gets down.

So regarding traits I suspect that +hp traits will be quiet rare. However if the generals are not tough they will die easily which could be easily exploitable as AI usually isn't very good at protecting their generals. And don't forget about accidental deaths of your generals... But the excessive hp won't be in DotS for sure anyway so don't worry, you shan't see any godlike generals in Dominion.

[Achilla]

Total hit points bonus of +3 for mounted general/family member/king is usually a healthy setting, anything bigger than that just creates semi-immortal, annoying dudes running around the battlefield alone. It is also good for them to start by default with a trait giving them +1 hit point, eventually evolving to +2 and +3 as they visit a city with good armourer or simply have access to personal surgeon or doctor (eventually, they gained better endurance by getting things close up and personal during battles).

On the other hand, 'disease' and 'unhealthy' traits with negative hit points seem to be somewhat bad for the game, as often the general dies very early even from poor missile fire, while his bodyguards are still standing (even if BG unit has 1 hit point and the default HP for captain is 2). In this case one might question general's intelligence and soundness of mind - why personally take part in the battle, if you are so fragile that a peasant girl could kill you with relative ease?

[Alkidas]

DotS will have quite a few FMs/generals, so it's a good idea not to make them awfully powerful. No Supermen in DotS. To me 2 HP sounds like maximum, even that is a lot. Since realism is what we are after, 1 HP would be the ideal solution. But we'll have to see how different solutions work in the game.

[Hengest]

I have to agree with the last post. Having said that there are situations I can think where and extra HP could be worthwhile, but really it is the fault of the engine and its frailties that raises theses issues.
In reality even great warriors could still die by an arrow or two, in the game we assign HP becuase we want our favourite little 'champions' to be more resilient.
So really lte me ask you all- wpuld you rather have medieval realism or good gameplay. Realism can of course be representative simulation, not just hardcore difficulty and calling that 'realism' by some magic. Difficulty does not equal realism.

[Haakon]

So really let me ask you all- would you rather have medieval realism or good gameplay. Realism can of course be representative simulation, not just hardcore difficulty and calling that 'realism' by some magic. Difficulty does not equal realism.

I would rather have a general that dies because he attacks spear units head on, than him mowing down a large amount of troops just because hes a general and thus last longer. When I play me2, I use cavalry as shock units, i.e flanking/attack archers. I never use them as a lawnmover on the grassy field of battle. Thats why its so annoying to face AI generals that lasts long despite them being completely surrounded by hundreds of men attacking all at once.

It kinda removes a tactical element imo.

[IIGaneshaII]

i think you should have somewhat powerful generals. would be sad if he got cut down in his first battle

[Kataki]

Generals should get more hp through better armorers etc but never be to the level where it takes forever to kill them with spearmen.

[BeingOwned:)SPQR]

I'd say Realism, but I do like the idea stated ^^
Realism: Mostly because there are enough mods which offer you a fair amount of Good Gameplay, TATW, SS, DLV...
There are rarely any mods with Realism, SS did have RR/RC but it made FM/Generals insanely OP'ed, Broken Crescent, now theres a realistic mod...

[sumskilz]

In my opinion, a high degree of realism and good gameplay aren't really mutually exclusive. It's the game engine's limitations that can often get in the way of both.

Having overpowered generals leads to generals surviving against the odds way too often. The result is that truly exceptional leaders become all too common which cheapens them. I know it sounds insane, but I think truly exceptional leaders should be just that - exceptional. Throwing your general into melee in a desperate attempt to turn the tide should be a gamble.

[Achilla]

I think it would be smart to make a little compromise here, making the general bodyguards have 'realistic' stats (representing what they wear + training, just 1hp) with low unit count number (e.g. 8 bodyguards versus 'standard' size of 24 for heavy cavalry, whereas king/family member retinue is 1.5x times bigger by default - 12 bodyguards), offset by general with a bit more hit points.

This gets us rid of abuse when assembled stack of few self-regenerating generals sweep in charge & melee through enemy stacks fairly untouched. On the other hand, there are much less accidental general deaths.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't allow for the generals to simply not enter the fight (and thus, it would be fair for them to be fragile), not to mention multiple-stage field battles, with the front, command center and supply lines/rear.

[medievaldude]

could there be a building like a knights estate its like those estates in rusichi total war like produces food and stuff or do you have something like that already? probably try to mix the 2 but make sure its historical

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

If it's realism we want, maybe generals should be weaker but much more likely to be captured than killed - I don't know if this is possible though. Surely most of the nobility in medieval times were captured and then ransomed?

[Haakon]

If it's realism we want, maybe generals should be weaker but much more likely to be captured than killed - I don't know if this is possible though. Surely most of the nobility in medieval times were captured and then ransomed?

I recall a documentary that said that princes, noblemen and the likes were rarely killed, but often captured for ransom. Only the poor peasents and foot soldiers died. Often, a lord would attack a rival with the sole goal or getting ransom money.

[Hengest]

I recall a documentary that said that princes, noblemen and the likes were rarely killed, but often captured for ransom. Only the poor peasents and foot soldiers died. Often, a lord would attack a rival with the sole goal or getting ransom money.

I agree it would be good if we could implement the ransom system from MTW which was much better than M2TW

[BeingOwned:)SPQR]

Cant capture a general unless he's routing... I wish we had the original feature of MTW, where if you fought a general and he's cut down he automatically becomes a prisoner...

[spanish_emperor]

the problem is morale is useless for the general because you can give them 1 morale and they will still fight to the last few men or till the death. So you can't really make them rout earlier.

I hope cavalry charges aren't destructive either. The infantry being charged at normally broke before there was actual contact, simply the sight terrified. The knights were normally more courageous as well which gave them an upper hand in hand to hand fighting, and skill, obviously through the hours of practice. So battles should be more of a morale battle.