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    Default Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Thanks to the signature of one member of the forum, I came across this concept of Neo-Ottomanism.
    I search about it and I found this article

    http://www.balkanstudies.org/article...-islamic-power

    The fact that Turkey is no longer a U.S. "ally" is still strenuously denied in Washington; but we were reminded of
    the true score on March 9, when Saudi King Abdullah presented Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan (shown above with wife and friends) with the Wahhabist kingdom's most prestigious prize for his "services to Islam" (from AltRight). Erdogan earned the King Faisal Prize for having "rendered outstanding service to Islam by defending the causes of the Islamic nation."

    Services to the Ummah - Turkey under Erdogan's neo-Islamist AKP has rendered a host of other services to "the Islamic nation." In August 2008 Ankara welcomed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for a formal state visit, and last year it announced that it would not join any sanctions aimed at preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. In the same spirit the AKP government repeatedly played host to Sudan's President Omer Hassan al-Bashir -- a nasty piece of jihadist work if there ever was one -- who stands accused of genocide against non-Muslims. Erdogan has barred Israel from annual military exercises on Turkey's soil, but his government signed a military pact with Syria last October and has been conducting joint military exercises with the regime of Bashir al-Assad. Turkey's strident apologia of Hamas is more vehement than anything coming out of Cairo or Amman. (Talking of terrorists, Erdogan has stated, repeatedly, "I do not want to see the word 'Islam' or 'Islamist' in connection with the word 'terrorism'!") simultaneous pressure to conform to Islam at home has gathered pace over the past seven years, and is now relentless. Turkish businessmen will tell you privately that sipping a glass of raki in public may hurt their chances of landing government contracts; but it helps if their wives and daughters wear the hijab.


    Ankara's continuing bid to join the European Union is running parallel with its openly neo-Ottoman policy of re-establishing an autonomous sphere of influence in the Balkans and in the former Soviet Central Asian republics. Turkey's EU candidacy is still on the agenda, but the character of the issue has evolved since Erdogan's AKP came to power in 2002.

    When the government in Ankara started the process by signing an Association agreement with the EEC (as it was then) in 1963, its goal was to make Turkey more "European." This had been the objective of subsequent attempts at Euro-integration by other neo-Kemalist governments prior to Erdogan's election victory eight years ago, notably those of Turgut Ozal and Tansu Ciller in the 1990s. The secularists hoped to present Turkey's "European vocation" as an attractive domestic alternative to the growing influence of political Islam, and at the same time to use the threat of Islamism as a means of obtaining political and economic concessions and specific timetables from Brussels. Erdogan and his personal friend and political ally Abdullah Gul, Turkey's president, still want the membership, but their motives are vastly different. Far from seeking to make Turkey more European, they want to make Europe more Turkish -- many German cities are well on the way -- and more Islamic, thus reversing the setback of 1683 without firing a shot.

    The neo-Ottoman strategy was clearly indicated by the appointment of Ahmet Davutoglu as foreign minister almost a year ago. As Erdogan's long-term foreign policy advisor, he advocated diversifying Turkey's geopolitical options by creating exclusively Turkish zones of influence in the Balkans, the Caucasus, Central Asia, and the Middle East... including links with Khaled al-Mashal of Hamas. On the day of his appointment in May Davutoglu asserted that Turkey's influence in "its region" will continue to grow: Turkey had an "order-instituting role" in the Middle East, the Balkans and the Caucasus, he declared, quite apart from its links with the West. In his words, Turkish foreign policy has evolved from being "crisis-oriented" to being based on "vision": "Turkey is no longer a country which only reacts to crises, but notices the crises before their emergence and intervenes in the crises effectively, and gives shape to the order of its surrounding region." He openly asserted that Turkey had a "responsibility to help stability towards the countries and peoples of the regions which once had links with Turkey" -- thus explicitly referring to the Ottoman era, in a manner unimaginable only a decade ago: "Beyond representing the 70 million people of Turkey, we have a historic debt to those lands where there are Turks or which was related to our land in the past. We have to repay this debt in the best way."

    This strategy is based on the assumption that growing Turkish clout in the old Ottoman lands -- a region in which the EU has vital energy and political interests -- may prompt President Sarkozy and Chancellor Merkel to drop their objections to Turkey's EU membership. If on the other hand the EU insists on Turkey's fulfillment of all 35 chapters of the acquis communautaire -- which Turkey cannot and does not want to complete -- then its huge autonomous sphere of influence in the old Ottoman domain can be developed into a major and potentially hostile counter-bloc to Brussels. Obama approved this strategy when he visited Ankara in April of last year, shortly after that notorious address to the Muslim world in Cairo.

    Erdogan is no longer eager to minimize or deny his Islamic roots, but his old assurances to the contrary -- long belied by his actions -- are still being recycled in Washington, and treated as reality. This reflects the propensity of this ddministration, just like its predecessors, to cherish illusions about the nature and ambitions of our regional "allies," such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

    The implicit assumption in Washington -- that Turkey would remain "secular" and "pro-Western," come what may -- should have been reassessed already after the Army intervened to remove the previous pro-Islamic government in 1997. Since then the Army has been neutered, confirming the top brass old warning that "democratization" would mean Islamization. Dozens of generals and other senior ranks -- traditionally the guardians of Ataturk's legacy -- are being called one by one for questioning in a government-instigated political trial. To the dismay of its small Westernized secular elite, Turkey has reasserted its Asian and Muslim character with a vengeance.

    Neo-Ottomanism - Washington's stubborn denial of Turkey's political, cultural and social reality goes hand in hand with an ongoing Western attempt to rehabilitate the Ottoman Empire, and to present it as almost a precursor of Europe's contemporary multiethnic, multicultural tolerance, diversity, etc, etc.

    In reality, four salient features of the Ottoman state were institutionalized discrimination against non-Muslims, total personal insecurity of all its subjects, an unfriendly coexistence of its many races and creeds, and the absence of unifying state ideology. It was a sordid Hobbesian borderland with mosques.

    An "Ottoman culture," defined by Constantinople and largely limited to its walls, did eventually emerge through the reluctant mixing of Turkish, Greek, Slavic, Jewish and other Levantine lifestyles and practices, each at its worst. The mix was impermanent, unattractive, and unable to forge identities or to command loyalties.

    The Roman Empire could survive a string of cruel, inept or insane emperors because its bureaucratic and military machines were well developed and capable of functioning even when there was confusion at the core. The Ottoman state lacked such mechanisms. Devoid of administrative flair, the Turks used the services of educated Greeks and Jews and awarded them certain privileges. Their safety and long-term status were nevertheless not guaranteed, as witnessed by the hanging of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch on Easter Day 1822.

    The Ottoman Empire gave up the ghost right after World War I, but long before that it had little interesting to say, or do, at least measured against the enormous cultural melting pot it had inherited and the splendid opportunities of sitting between the East and West. Not even a prime location at the crossroads of the world could prompt creativity. The degeneracy of the ruling class, blended with Islam's inherent tendency to the closing of the mind, proved insurmountable.

    A century later the Turkish Republic is a populous, self-assertive nation-state of over 70 million. Ataturk hoped to impose a strictly secular concept of nationhood, but political Islam has reasserted itself. In any event the Kemalist dream of secularism had never penetrated beyond the military and a narrow stratum of the urban elite.

    The near-impossible task facing Turkey's Westernized intelligentsia before Erdogan had been to break away from the lure of irredentism abroad, and at home to reform Islam into a matter of personal choice separated from the State and distinct from the society. Now we know that it could not be done. The Kemalist edifice, uneasily perched atop the simmering Islamic volcano, is by now an empty shell.

    A new "Turkish" policy is long overdue in Washington. Turkey is not an "indispensable ally," as Paul Wolfowitz called her shortly before the war in Iraq, and as Obama repeated last April. It is no longer an ally at all. It may have been an ally in the darkest Cold War days, when it accommodated U.S. missiles aimed at Russia's heartland. Today it is just another Islamic country, a regional power of considerable importance to be sure, with interests and aspirations that no longer coincide with those of the United States.

    Both Turkey and the rest of the Middle East matter far less to American interests than we are led to believe, and it is high time to demythologize America's special relationships throughout the region. Accepting that Mustafa Kemal's legacy is undone is the long-overdue first step.


    I wonder how realistic this aproach to foreign policy is. It seems Turkey wants a sphere of influence on her former Empire (and more). This aproach is not new : the Russians do the same, continuign her political influence over former Soviet republics, France continues to have influence in former French Africa, Great Britain still has an influence (though more a symbolic one) in the Commonwealth, etc.

    But Turkey having a sphere of influence in Balkans? Over Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, and even non Balkanic like Croatia, Romania? Is these feasable, when all this countries will reject any interference from Turkey because their anti-Ottoman historical tradition?

    Also can Turkey still have an influence on Arab world? Would Egypt permit such a subordination, or Syria (a hostile state to Turkey because territorial revendications)?

    The only realistic sphere of influence is partially in Caucasus and Central Asia, but this means tresspassing Russian domain. Is Turkey capable to do that?

    And isn't it a bit too late to revive Ottomanism? I mean its legacy wasn't really a positive one and this legacy is anyway gone, it was erased by the new national states in the process of their liberation from Ottomans. In Balkans only Albanians and Bosniaks are the representatives of this legacy, but I'm not sure they will not [edit] lean to Turkey when they have such a great suport from EU and NATO.

    Another interesting fact is that Turkey don't want and she hasn't anymore the support of US. This is not good news for Turks, as US supports Kurds in Iraq and if Turkey continues it rapprochment with countries like Iran and Sudan, the Kurdish problem in Turkey could reemerge more dangerously and we know that US support give any secessionist movement great chances of success.
    Last edited by CiviC; April 10, 2010 at 04:16 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    I think its more talk than walk. Turkey doesn't have the military might to go around being a big bully. especially if the EU, USA, or Russia gets involved.
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    That is just stupid talk.Why does Turkey having good relations with its neighbours mean that it wants to remake ottoman empire?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Bravado, it sounds like. You see Turkey to the Arab world isn't the same as Russia to the mid-Eurasian countries. It's overshadowed by the EU, NATO, Russia, the USA, Iran and (in regards to military power, Israel)

    The idea of Turkey having influence over Eastern Europe is like Japan doing the same to Asia.


    Turkey is a Middle-Power (big enough not to be ignored in regional affairs, but small enough to ignored by those who don't neighbour it)
    Turkey's neighbours are Iran, Iraq (influenced by Iran), Syria (even closer to Iran) the Caucasus states (who are pro-West) and Bulgaria, Greece and Cyprus who are Western themselves. I don't think Turkey is alienated by the West... yet, but if Turkey loses it secularism and/or starts to tilt toward Iran (I heard the Turkish PM questioned the suspicion of Iran wanting Nukes) then Turkey will lose her Western connections.
    Last edited by Vermelho_Steele; April 10, 2010 at 05:14 AM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Well, as far as the Balkans are concerned there is no chance in hell for coming under Turkish influence, except Bosnia (or rather half of it). Even Albania and Kosovo are more independent minded.

    Greece is out of the question, Bulgaria and Romania are EU and NATO members now and love their new status, Serbia is self explanatory and so on.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    is this just a theory

    it sounds too stupid to be carriable away

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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    There are many people who consider that the existance of such a scenario as probable. If it does exist, it's certainly a road that will lead Turkey to destruction, since it would mean that they want to get involved in the internal affairs of the European Union, the American zone of influence/interest (North Iraq, Syria, Iran-supporting it against American will), Russia (Armenia), UK (Cyprus-there are still British bases there).
    What is true, though, is that they try to involve themselves in Greek matters (Turkish actions in Thrace and Aegean Sea) and Bulgarian internal affairs as well (status of Turkish minority). They also follow a policy of strong economic and other influences in FYROM, Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia.
    Last edited by Romanos IV; April 10, 2010 at 09:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Turkey is not a threat. The bitter concern lies in a possible Islamic Revival there, which the AKP has done nothing but foster. I bet we can tighten the belts and prepare for an extra pill of extremist victory, particularly if the military is incapable of doing its routine and necessary job of putting "Democracy" back on the tracks during the twenty year period or so it slips into chaos.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Neo-Ottomanism has nothing to do with Islamism and cenkiss is right: what good relations have to do with expansionism.

    Edit: I'm going through the whole website and it seems that most of these authors are Serb-biased, anti-NATO, anti-EU which takes their credibility away.

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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    The concept seems ridicoulus to me.

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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Realistically Turkey cannot recreate the Caliphate as a secular state. However they would be able to consolidate support in the Arab world bar Syria and possibly Iraq. The reason I say this is because the Arab world lacks leadership.

    The Saudies can't do it because they are weak politically (because of their extremist doctrine, Wahabism) and in military terms.
    Egypt frankly failed in resolving the Arab issue, the creation of a palestinian state, and many still think the Egyptions sold out by signing peace for themselves without guarantees to the Palestanian cause.

    The Arab world now faces another crisis other than the unresolved Israeli-Palestinian issue; the growing influence of Shia Iran. Example, last year Morocco kicked out their Iranian ambassador because of allegations that Iran was spreading Shiasim in Morocco.

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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Well, It's true that AKP helped to foster the Islamist idea but not a lot really changes. What AKP did was to simply make those more religious section of Turkey raise their voices which don't make up more than 25% at most.

    On the other hand the Presidency of Religious Affairs have been working on the Hadith problem by taking out certain non-modern sections.

    Turkey expanding it's influence on Arabic states is very probable while on the Balkan states seems like an overstretch.
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Turkey expanding it's influence on Arabic states is very probable while on the Balkan states seems like an overstretch.
    In the Arab world, bitterness over Ottoman rule seems to have all disappeared.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    I wonder how realistic this aproach to foreign policy is. It seems Turkey wants a sphere of influence on her former Empire (and more). This aproach is not new : the Russians do the same, continuign her political influence over former Soviet republics, France continues to have influence in former French Africa, Great Britain still has an influence (though more a symbolic one) in the Commonwealth, etc.


    The lack of Turkish influence in Turkey's neighbouring regions is actually something of an abnormality. The complete collapse of the Ottoman Empire created a power vacuum that attracted foreign powers like honey attracts flies. Turkey's unwillingness to use its influence, focused as it was on putting its own house in order, merely compounded this situation. I personally think this new assertive role that Turkey is playing, far from being Islamist imperialism (as 'Neo-Ottomanism' implies), is merely the restoration of the historic balance of power in the region.

    But Turkey having a sphere of influence in Balkans? Over Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, and even non Balkanic like Croatia, Romania? Is these feasable, when all this countries will reject any interference from Turkey because their anti-Ottoman historical tradition?
    I would think that the influence that Turkey could wield wouldn't be political, cultural, or military, but rather economic. Turkey is a major, growing, regional economic power. The only alternatives to Turkey in this sense are Germany and Italy. Turkey's relatively new economic strength, however, is an asset in this case, as Turkish companies are still not strong enough to completely dominate the local economies, unlike their German and Italian counterparts. A more equal footing (or at least less one-sided) promotes better economic cooperation, hence the Turkish economic influence. Other European economies are big enough that they simply overpower the local economies, which, while good for the former, are not good for grassroots political influence. Think of it this way, which would be more welcome: a large MNC (Multi-National Corporation) just coming in and setting up industries that it dominates, from raw material to finished product? Or smaller MNCs that need to cooperate with local suppliers?

    Also can Turkey still have an influence on Arab world? Would Egypt permit such a subordination, or Syria (a hostile state to Turkey because territorial revendications)?
    Turkey's lack of involvement in the Middle East since WWI has actually turned out to be an asset in many cases, as it is often seen as neutral in most disputes. Even between Syria and Israel (at least, until Erdogan's volatility kicked in). Egypt and Syria often welcome Turkey's influence over Israel, while Israel usually appreciates the reverse (again, until recently - Israel has its own hotheads).

    As for Syrian claims on Turkey's Hatay province, they seem to have been quietly swept under the rug and forgotten, partly because Turkey has acted as a mediator between Syria and Israel over the Golan Heights. This is just my own speculation, however. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the Syrian or Turkish governments. Yet.


    The only realistic sphere of influence is partially in Caucasus and Central Asia, but this means tresspassing Russian domain. Is Turkey capable to do that?
    It's hit or miss. It really depends on how big the Russian influence is in the specific countries. Azerbaijan is really the only former Soviet country that Turkey has any real influence over, economic, cultural, and political, though this has some string attached (e.g., Karabakh).


    There are actually
    three competing influences in Central Asia: Turkish, Russian, and Iranian. Russia's tends to be mostly political owing to the Soviet links. Iran's tends to be religious and cultural (especially in the more southern countries). Turkey's tends to be cultural (not religious) and economic, for the most part. The situation seems to be in flux at the moment, so nobody really has the upper hand - my personal opinion.


    And isn't it a bit too late to revive Ottomanism? I mean its legacy wasn't really a positive one and this legacy is anyway gone, it was erased by the new national states in the process of their liberation from Ottomans. In Balkans only Albanians and Bosniaks are the representatives of this legacy, but I'm not sure they will not [edit] lean to Turkey when they have such a great suport from EU and NATO.


    I think linking Turkish foreign policy to Ottoman influence is a mistake. Very little of Turkey's influence has to do with traditional Ottoman elements (e.g., religion, military domination, etc.). The term 'Neo-Ottomanism' seems to reflect the distaste of (mainly) Western scholars for Turkey's increasingly assertive role in the region, more than anything else, as it draws on the negative perception of the Ottoman Empire in the West. They basically think that the current balance of power is the way things are and have been, rather than the historical outlier that the situation actually is.

    Another interesting fact is that Turkey don't want and she hasn't anymore the support of US. This is not good news for Turks, as US supports Kurds in Iraq and if Turkey continues it rapprochment with countries like Iran and Sudan, the Kurdish problem in Turkey could reemerge more dangerously and we know that US support give any secessionist movement great chances of success.

    Don't confuse Turkey not supporting the US with Turkey no longer being a puppet of the US. Part of the problem here is that US administrations have gotten too used to the idea of Turkey being a yes-man that was willing to place US interests over its own. During the bi-polar balance of power of the Cold War, Turkey simply wasn't in a position to compete in its own right. In the multi-polar situation of today, however, it is or soon will be.

    Nor has the US been the best of allies to Turkey, either. Turkey
    probably () would have been much better off if the US hadn't wrecked its biggest trading partner (Iraq) in 1991. And sanctioned one of its biggest trading partners in 1979 (Iran). Isn't it logical that Turkey would eventually stand up and say 'Hey, your meddling in the region is seriously ****ing up my country, cut it out!'? Especially now, when there is no Soviet threat to contend with anymore?

    Nor will the US support the Kurds against Turkey. It's political suicide, and it will destroy what little credibility the US has left in the Middle East (it's one thing to play off one opponent against another, but to support terrorism against an
    ally?). The Kurds in northern Iraq are actually turning to Turkey for support, because they know that the US will eventually leave the region (fairly soon, actually). Their only alternatives are Iran (which has a different religion AND has suppressed Kurdish rebellions of its own), the Arabs (who have gassed them and otherwise brutally suppressed them - Turkey never fought against the Kurdish people, but rather only against the PKK, though harshly, to be fair), and Israel (political and maybe even literal suicide). Turkey may not be the ideal option, but it's the least bad option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph
    In the Arab world, bitterness over Ottoman rule seems to have all disappeared.


    The bitterness towards the Arabs in Turkey also seems to have subsided, or has at least been focused on certain elements of Arab society (I'd guess Saudi Arabia, which is also the well-spring of 'The Crazy'), rather than on the Arabs in general.
    Last edited by Crimson Scythe; April 10, 2010 at 04:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Scythe View Post


    The lack of Turkish influence in Turkey's neighbouring regions is actually something of an abnormality. The complete collapse of the Ottoman Empire created a power vacuum that attracted foreign powers like honey attracts flies. Turkey's unwillingness to use its influence, focused as it was on putting its own house in order, merely compounded this situation. I personally think this new assertive role that Turkey is playing, far from being Islamist imperialism (as 'Neo-Ottomanism' implies), is merely the restoration of the historic balance of power in the region.
    Thanks but no thanks. We had enough of protectors and managers in the area. Turkey is not needed, and certainly not desired in such a role.

    No offense of course. Just being a realist.

    But i imagine a scenario at times and laugh. Can we get so tired of these @sshats from the EU, US, RUSFED and China running the show that one day we may all end up saying "you know what sounds good? A Turkish administration under a muslim heavy direction".


  16. #16

    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgos View Post
    Thanks but no thanks. We had enough of protectors and managers in the area. Turkey is not needed, and certainly not desired in such a role.

    No offense of course. Just being a realist.
    No offense taken, my friend. I actually agree with you, and quite frankly don't think that Turkey should get too involved in the Balkans. Too much investment for too little gain.

    The Balkans, however, can't really stand on their own, either. It's simple demographics. No Balkan countries have populations that are big enough to be major markets. Hence why they will naturally gravitate, economically speaking, towards the regional big boys (e.g., Italy, Germany, Turkey, or Russia). The EU solves this in theory by providing a common European market. In practice, however, it's not really a viable alternative, as the economic centre of that union is too far away (western Europe), thus driving up costs and degrading competitiveness. Furthermore, Balkan countries often don't have a competitive advantage in industry, which is the foundation of a stable economy. Service-based industries work, but are volatile.

    But i imagine a scenario at times and laugh. Can we get so tired of these @sshats from the EU, US, RUSFED and China running the show that one day we may all end up saying "you know what sounds good? A Turkish administration under a muslim heavy direction".
    It would be truly ironic if Turkey said 'no thanks' declaring certain countries to be not 'Turkish' or 'Middle Eastern' enough to join. Of course, Saudi Arabia will have to become famous for its skiing before that ever happens.
    Last edited by Crimson Scythe; April 10, 2010 at 06:03 PM. Reason: typo
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Scythe View Post
    No offense taken, my friend. I actually agree with you, and quite frankly don't think that Turkey should get too involved in the Balkans. To much investment for too little gain.
    Ι will agree. Your generalissimos, however, will not.

    The Balkans, however, can't really stand on their own, either. It's simple demographics. No Balkan countries have populations that are big enough to be major markets. Hence why they will naturally gravitate, economically speaking, towards the regional big boys (e.g., Italy, Germany, Turkey, or Russia)
    Oh i agree, but you do know what the problem has always been with the Balkan nations(Greece included)?

    They don't care.

    The EU solves this in theory by providing a common European market. In practice, however, it's not really a viable alternative, as the economic centre of that union is too far away (western Europe), thus driving up costs and degrading competitiveness.
    All true. I agree.

    Furthermore, Balkan countries often don't have a competitive advantage in industry, which is the foundation of a stable economy. Service-based industries work, but are volatile.
    Not only volatile but also counter progressive.

    It would be truly ironic if Turkey said 'no thanks' declaring certain countries to be not 'Turkish' or 'Middle Eastern' enough to join. Of course, Saudi Arabia will have to become famous for its skiing before that ever happens.
    I'd love to see that, believe me! That will be the day! "I am sorry Greece, you are not Muslim enough to join us".

    You will always receive two answers. One from our ever gracious and of slave mentality "politicians", which can be summarized with the words "oh pretty please, fofgdlkjfgbkdjhbvlbflskdfnblsdjsnldfn i need to make some money in these 4 years". The other from the citizens which can be summarized with the word "ORLY?"

    Not too different from the Turkish POV i suspect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Atabeg View Post
    And how do you propose "fixing" relations with neighbours that dreams of killing you? If you even will make sense...

    Turkey is not the one who needs to "fix relations" in first place, it has no claims around unlike some of its "neighbours".
    Who are you afraid of, Atabeg? Who's going to eat you?


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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Neo-Ottomanism is Total Win!!
    Ottoman Empire will reborn!

  19. #19
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    If neo-Ottomanism means, gettind rid of stupid nationalism and fixing relations with neighbours...I am for it.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  20. #20
    Koelkastmagneet's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Neo-Ottomanism, the new doctrine of Turkey? What do you think about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    If neo-Ottomanism means, gettind rid of stupid nationalism and fixing relations with neighbours...I am for it.
    Agreed, good to have you back Dogukan

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