Dishonouring Treaties

[kikosemmek]

Alright, so I'm playing as France and I reached the plateau part of my campaign. I'm making bank, my borders are stable, and most of my neighbours like me. I only need to take out the Cherokee to get Louisiana to join me, but, as soon as I declare war on the Cherokee, everyone hates me. Everyone. Dishonouring treaties -200. wat?

So, I load a previous save, and cancel my military access with them two turns prior to declaring war. Everyone still hates me. I have not one single bloody treaty with the Cherokee, what exactly does everyone think I'm dishonouring? I saved and quit, because this is very sticky for me. I can't go on with my campaign without annexing Louisiana at this stage, but I also can't have every nation in Europe being hostile toward me.

Is there anything I'm not aware of? If not, are there mods that fix this stupid thing?

[karamazovmm]

have you considered that they may have treaties with other nations, and because of that you get that penalty? try to look at it

[kikosemmek]

They have a trade agreement with Louisiana, my protectorate. There is nothing I can do about it. I kept threatening the Cherokee until they are around -450 with me, and still they won't declare war.

It seems the game wants me to start a war against all of Europe. Why would a treaty between the Cherokee and my protectorate even matter? I wasn't dishonouring any agreement I signed. Isn't there a mod to remove the effects of stupidity such this?

[One Two]

i have experienced similar situations when playing as the marathas when i declared war on Mysore... i have no clue what it's about, but I did lose over 25k trade income per turn cos of it... angry nations broke their trade agreements

[Lowes]

The game is designed that aggresive moves on your part are reflected negatively upon you by other nations. If you check diplomacy you'll see a negative score for "expansion." In addition, bear in mind that this IS a total war game old stick, and as such its designed that your neigbours, no matter how chummy you are with them, instantly have a better chance of going to war with you (which would explain why any move on your part appears to piss off the grand majority of the world), a way of keeping the gin coming, if you catch my drift.

Hope I was of some service to you.


EDIT: I also believe the size of the nation you're attacking comes into play as well. Major nations attacking much smaller minor nations seems to send ripples of support for the minor nation -- however, this, unlike the rest of my post, is pure speculation, and I doubt CA was that intricate with their diplomacy system.

[kikosemmek]

Aye. I appreciate them keeping the wars up, but this does get to ridiculous places. Note, by the way, that we're not talking about the resistance to expansion, which is an incremental, negligible diplomatic detriment that comes with territorial aggression. We're talking about the game starting me off with a military access agreement with a nation I'm supposed to be conquering (Cherokee Territories are part of your mission to annex Louisiana). You cannot negate or opt out of said treaty, and once you declare war, all of Europe literally despises you.

I was eventually forced into breaking the treaty, as it was either that or abandon the campaign, and it was simply too much fun to let go. Let me be very clear that I am perfectly literal when I say that every single nation in Europe is hostile toward me, including former allies, Spain. That isn't a sound game mechanic. That's just a broken diplomatic system. The only world power that doesn't hate me is the Maratha Confederacy, which had just decimated the Ottoman Empire.

What does your wily French monarch do? Ally with the Marathas and pincer those European fatheads!

I haven't been dragged into any major war yet, however. All of my trade agreements are still in place and I'm making around 50k per turn. It's time to go into Sith mode. I just took Hannover. Let's see who's hostile. Total war it is!

I love this game, despite the stupid that comes with it

[P|A|ntZ]

I think what did you in this time was that your protectorate was acting with a certain level of autonomy (as they do) and signed a treaty with the Cherokee. Because you are their protector, you inherited that military access treaty, and so had to break it to go to war against the Cherokee. I wouldn't call this a fault in the game, but rather some annoying circumstances that arose with your protectorate getting friendly with their native neighbours.

Even if you break a treaty like this, if you declare war soon, you'll still incur huge penalties. Have you tried cancelling the agreements, and then waiting about 10 turns before getting aggressive with the Cherokee?

[kikosemmek]

I don't think it was about Louisiana's trade agreement with them. In the campaign, you start with a military access agreement with the Cherokee. There's nothing you can do about that. What you can do is cancel it from your end, so none of their troops can enter your lands without being hostile, but, for whatever reason, there's nothing you can do to get them to cancel it from their end. They will keep granting you the indefinite military access from that initial agreement, no matter what, which is bound to give you that penalty. I tried threatening them to no end. I got them to about -1600, and they still did not rescind their military access or declare war on me, and whenever I declare war, I'm basically betraying their trust in giving me military access, which makes everyone else hate my guts. The game wanted me to eat this turd, it seems.

I attacked many other small nations which Louisiana was trading with, such as the Innuit, but incurred no huge penalties about dishonouring a treaty, because I had none with them. I don't think it's anything Louisiana had to do with.

[Spriggs]

I recall the fledgling United States of America embarking on some sort of "Louisiana Purchase"... Ever thought of buying the needed territory from its owner? Offer a fortune in gold, and I am sure you can get it without bloodshed.

[War&Politics]

I recall the fledgling United States of America embarking on some sort of "Louisiana Purchase"... Ever thought of buying the needed territory from its owner? Offer a fortune in gold, and I am sure you can get it without bloodshed.

The AI is willing to part with some territories easily. Other territories are almost impossible to get for any amount of money.

[karamazovmm]

no its not the military access that is the problem. If in your end its over (the cherokee can't walk your territory), then there is no penalty. Now if your nations engages in a war with someone that you have a trade agreement, then the possibility of a much higher penalty implies. now let's simplify things.

The nation has a trade agreement/alliance with someone that you either trade or is allied?
-Yes, then you're fracked
-Yes, but my allies/trade partners cancelled those, you're good, only a minor penalty
-No, then you're okay

The penalty is based on alliances/trade agreements and we should never forget the standing of the nation in the world.
if it is a loved nation, then you're fracked again since your penalty is going to be much harder, than if it was not loved at all.

this system actually works contrary to the system in m2tw

[razor1952]

I had that problem as US 4th scenario and swapped 2 non critical provinces for the one I needed, in my case I had an alliance with Cherokees and even waiting after cancelling everthing then declaring war still got -50 from everyone, so best solution was to trade a few provinces for the 1 needed . Personally I think it is a very good feature and keeps me on my toes.

[PVT-Kanaka]

It is also a nice play balance thing, in my opinion,