Arrival of Croats and Serbs

[Carpathian Wolf]

They don't need a law for that it's been going on for a long time. My mother is Croat and my father is Serb, both from BiH.

Both of you (Bosnian_King and Carpathian Wolf) are off-topic and are clearly both wrong about most of the crap you wrote. I would like to plead with somebody to delete both your posts as well as this one. Thank you in Advance.

Settle down with the KGB censorship comrade. What is "crap" about what I posted?

[slavic_crusader]

Bosnians were a nation of their own, but they are gentically same as serbs and croats. As serbs and croats are gentically the same as well

[Carpathian Wolf]

Bosnians were a nation of their own, but they are gentically same as serbs and croats. As serbs and croats are gentically the same as well

Well what is a nation? I can wear my hat backwards and pray to a different god and now I am my own nation?

Sure Bosniaks evolved their own identity but you don't have to be a Bosniak to be a Bosnian. Bosnian is a regional name. The Serbs in Bosnia are just as Bosnian, (if not more,) they're still Christian, than the Bosniaks who adopted Turkish culture.

[MeAgain]

Well what is a nation? I can wear my hat backwards and pray to a different god and now I am my own nation?

Sure Bosniaks evolved their own identity but you don't have to be a Bosniak to be a Bosnian. Bosnian is a regional name. The Serbs in Bosnia are just as Bosnian, (if not more,) they're still Christian, than the Bosniaks who adopted Turkish culture.

While I agree with almost everything you wrote in this post, for the simple fact that it's completely off-topic makes it 'crap'.

There is no need to call me commrade and link me with KGB, I'm not Soviet or a communist. If you have something that relates to the arrival of Serbs and Croats, by all means say it, if not...need I say more?

[slavic_crusader]

i was not talking about bosniaks lol
I was talking in general. I could conisder my self as half bosnian by my father's side of the family, lived there for 200yrs. But u must think that many bosnians in the medieval period obvliusly changed, so its not the same anymore, the meaning obvously changed. Now to be bosnian u must be born there to be one of them or related. Perhaps earlier it was a whole different meaning. Do u generally undertand what im saying?

[Carpathian Wolf]

While I agree with almost everything you wrote in this post, for the simple fact that it's completely off-topic makes it 'crap'.

There is no need to call me commrade and link me with KGB, I'm not Soviet or a communist. If you have something that relates to the arrival of Serbs and Croats, by all means say it, if not...need I say more?

Considering Bosnia is composed of Serbs and Croats i'm on topic.

i was not talking about bosniaks lol
I was talking in general. I could conisder my self as half bosnian by my father's side of the family, lived there for 200yrs. But u must think that many bosnians in the medieval period obvliusly changed, so its not the same anymore, the meaning obvously changed. Now to be bosnian u must be born there to be one of them or related. Perhaps earlier it was a whole different meaning. Do u generally undertand what im saying?

Actually I think most of the Bosnians in the medieval period remained Christian while only the ruling class elite or those who would become that became "Bosniak Muslim." But I think I understand what you mean.

[slavic_crusader]

u must also conisder the migrations of serbs and all that, especially during the ottoman peroid and thats y there is alot serbs living in bosnia

[MeAgain]

Guys leave Bosnia out of this thread. This is about the ARRIVAL of Serbs and Croats, and not about the composition of the Bosnian population, politics, who is what, etc....

[slavic_crusader]

ok i agree

[Carpathian Wolf]

u must also conisder the migrations of serbs and all that, especially during the ottoman peroid and thats y there is alot serbs living in bosnia

When was this? It would have to be a massive migration outnumbering all other groups in Bosnia. Sorry but that's non sense. Bosnia was described as a Serb land even in the 900s.

[slavic_crusader]

well when serbs moved to bosnia when serbia was conquered by the ottomans to stay away from ottoman rule. Same as well to croatia. Away from Kosovo thats one of the reasons y there are problems in all these areas becuase people moved

[Son of Fire]

True, but I think what CarWolf is saying is that though that happened later, it still doesn't explain the mention of Serbs in Bosnia at much earlier dates...

[phoenix[illusion]]

medieval Bosnians and today's Bosniaks are not in common
they only have same blood in common, but not the religion and culture. leave them in distance.

[Carpathian Wolf]

True, but I think what CarWolf is saying is that though that happened later, it still doesn't explain the mention of Serbs in Bosnia at much earlier dates...

Exactly. It isn't like Serbs were a later addition to Bosnia than "Bosnians." Bosnian is just the regional name of the people living there...which includes Serbs. There is no distinction. Saying "those people are Bosnians not Serbs" is like saying "those people are New Yorkers, not Americans." Makes no sense.

[Matthæus]

Exactly. It isn't like Serbs were a later addition to Bosnia than "Bosnians." Bosnian is just the regional name of the people living there...which includes Serbs. There is no distinction. Saying "those people are Bosnians not Serbs" is like saying "those people are New Yorkers, not Americans." Makes no sense.

it is a lot complicated than that. you can't compare 20th century America to 14th century Bosnia. you are talking about time before existence of modern sense of nationality.

fact is that nobility of this region insisted on calling themselves "Bosnians". not Serbs, not Croats but "Bosnians" whatever that meant at the time.

[Carpathian Wolf]

it is a lot complicated than that. you can't compare 20th century America to 14th century Bosnia. you are talking about time before existence of modern sense of nationality.

fact is that nobility of this region insisted on calling themselves "Bosnians". not Serbs, not Croats but "Bosnians" whatever that meant at the time.

Do we have a quote of someone saying "i'm Bosnian, not Serb" ?

[Son of Fire]

If that is the case then to me that would seem merely a case of supplanting ethnic identity with political/regional/national identity...
Not that, that is wrong or anything...

[slavic_crusader]

why does that matter it does change throughout time and i think i told u before

[Bosnian_King]

Do we have a quote of someone saying "i'm Bosnian, not Serb" ?

No we don't have such a quote. But we have like 1000 quotes of Bosnian kings who are writing:" ...Bosnians, Serbs , Croats..." when summing them up in different documents. It is not less than logical that they considered "Bosnian" something different then "Serb" isn''t it?

If a Bosnian king Tvrtko II is writing:"Who ever is a Bosnian or whoever is not a Bosnian; but still an inhabitant of the Bosnian kingdom has the obligation to....." That means that in the Bosnian kingdom lived those who were Bosnians and those who were not. Those whoe were not Bosnians were Serbs and Croats off course.

Or king Tvrtko I writes about the attacks on the Croatian cities in Dalmatia and he writes:"Croats and Bosnians attacked...." Isn't it logical that he considered a Croat differentfrom a Bosnian?

When the Croatian nobleman Hrvoje Vukicic Hrvatinic (a 1000000% Croat) joined the Bosnian stated and when he was invited at the "Bosnian "National" meeting" in Visoko..the Bosnian first king wrote:"And Hrvoje came to me with his Croats... about this fact the noble Bosnians can testify".

Of couse some part of Bosnia was part of Serbia but 3 centuries later some part of serbia was part of Bosnia. What does that proove? If Tvrtko is talking about "Bosnian lands" and summing up the teritory of a part of Serbia; does that mean that the inhabitants are Bosnians? No it means that this people lived under the Bosnian rule. Nothing more and nothing less.

[phoenix[illusion]]

No we don't have such a quote. But we have like 1000 quotes of Bosnian kings who are writing:" ...Bosnians, Serbs , Croats..." when summing them up in different documents. It is not less than logical that they considered "Bosnian" something different then "Serb" isn''t it?

If a Bosnian king Tvrtko II is writing:"Who ever is a Bosnian or whoever is not a Bosnian; but still an inhabitant of the Bosnian kingdom has the obligation to....." That means that in the Bosnian kingdom lived those who were Bosnians and those who were not. Those whoe were not Bosnians were Serbs and Croats off course.

Or king Tvrtko I writes about the attacks on the Croatian cities in Dalmatia and he writes:"Croats and Bosnians attacked...." Isn't it logical that he considered a Croat differentfrom a Bosnian?

When the Croatian nobleman Hrvoje Vukicic Hrvatinic (a 1000000% Croat) joined the Bosnian stated and when he was invited at the "Bosnian "National" meeting" in Visoko..the Bosnian first king wrote:"And Hrvoje came to me with his Croats... about this fact the noble Bosnians can testify".

Of couse some part of Bosnia was part of Serbia but 3 centuries later some part of serbia was part of Bosnia. What does that proove? If Tvrtko is talking about "Bosnian lands" and summing up the teritory of a part of Serbia; does that mean that the inhabitants are Bosnians? No it means that this people lived under the Bosnian rule. Nothing more and nothing less.

agreed, you have a point certainly what would i say.
almost all Nemanjic rulers speak of Bosnians as different nation, not Serbian nation, but yet still, of brother nation (culture, language etc.)