A question to all Soviet military fans

[Polish Cavalryman]

How would you justify the humiliating Soviet defeat in 1920? Please don't tell me they won that war.

[Applesmack]

What about the fact that the war was in a middle of a brutal revolution and there was still chaos throughout the country? What is sad is that the Soviets almost WON! Infact, it was more of a tie than anything.

[Polish Cavalryman]

I know that Soviets were in a revolution, but Poland was just being formed, so we had a big mess in our country too! And Soviet did not "almost won". They lost every big battle.

[Applesmack]

I know that Soviets were in a revolution, but Poland was just being formed, so we had a big mess in our country too!

Formed =/= chaos and war that slaughtered millions. There was a famine in Russia about that time that killed more millions of people. That lets you see the seriousness of the situation.

And Soviet did not "almost won". They lost every big battle.

Yeah, of course That is why the Polish victory at Warsaw is considered a miracle. Poland was basically saved by a hair.

[Mig el Pig]

I know that Soviets were in a revolution, but Poland was just being formed, so we had a big mess in our country too! And Soviet did not "almost won". They lost every big battle.

They advanced halfway into poland by losing every battle?

Let me guess, they were retreating the wrong way?

[Landsknecht_88]

What about the fact that the war was in a middle of a brutal revolution and there was still chaos throughout the country? What is sad is that the Soviets almost WON! Infact, it was more of a tie than anything.

The Polish didn't exactly achieve a stunning victory, but I don't see why you call it more of a tie? It was after all the Russians that ended up ceding territory.

[Applesmack]

The Polish didn't exactly achieve a stunning victory, but I don't see why you call it more of a tie? It was after all the Russians that ended up ceding territory.

The Poles failed to achieve their objectives:

The Poles claimed a successful defense of their state, while the Soviets claimed a repulse of the Polish eastward invasion of Ukraine and Belarus, which they viewed as a part of the foreign intervention in the Russian Civil War.

And Poland was just being formed. Don't forget about that.

Formed does not even close to compare to having a civil war in your country. Poland was stable enough to invade a foreign nation. To do that one must be pretty stable...

[Polish Cavalryman]

The Poles failed to achieve their objectives

No we didn't

Formed does not even close to compare to having a civil war in your country. Poland was stable enough to invade a foreign nation. To do that one must be pretty stable...

I was always taught that Soviets were the aggressors...

[Applesmack]

No we didn't

Yes you did, you signed a treaty editted by the Soviets.

I was always taught that Soviets were the aggressors...

Not in that war. Poland wanted to gain "It's" territories "back".

[Landsknecht_88]

The Poles failed to achieve their objectives:

The Poles claimed a successful defense of their state, while the Soviets claimed a repulse of the Polish eastward invasion of Ukraine and Belarus, which they viewed as a part of the foreign intervention in the Russian Civil War.

Now you are just being silly. They may not have achieved their original objectives, but you are very naive if you believe that a victory is only achieved if the original goals are reached. You do realize that many powers had hoped for more than they actually achieved, although they eventually won, right? Of course the Poles would have loved to reconquer more of their former historical territory, but they were pragmatic --like many powers-- and settled for a more minor victory.

[Applesmack]

Now you are just being silly. They may not have achieved their original objectives, but you are very naive if you believe that a victory is only achieved if the original goals are reached. You do realize that many powers had hoped for more than they actually achieved, although they eventually won, right? Of course the Poles would have loved to reconquer more of their former historical territory, but they were pragmatic --like many powers-- and settled for a more minor victory.

And the fact the fact they settled means that they failed. I fully believe that the orginial motives and goals of the combatants in a war determine whether a victory is achieved or not. The Poles certainly "won" more than they "lost", but that doesn't mean they succeeded in doing what they wanted to do. The Soviets, in the same way, succeeded in retaining their territories but not all of them nor did they succeed in destroying Poland. Neither side accomplished their goals.

But yes, if you are asking who got more out of the war it is obviously Poland, it is just not what you would consider a "victory" in the Polish-Soviet war.

[torongill]

How would you justify the humiliating Soviet defeat in 1920? Please don't tell me they won that war.

Do you really believe you can compare soviet Russia of 1920 with the USSR in the end of the 1930s or God forbid, the end of WW2?
Lost every big Battle, you say? It really depends on what you consider "big battles". If the only big battles are the miracle of Vistula and Komarow, then yes. But could you answer why on Earth did it come to vistula and not, for example, Volga?

[Oklop]

How would you justify the humiliating Soviet defeat in 1920? Please don't tell me they won that war.

Well, civil war that took more lives in Russia that entire WW1 was probably most responsible.

[Polish Cavalryman]

Yeah, of course That is why the Polish victory at Warsaw is considered a miracle. Poland was basically saved by a hair.

No, it is not considered a miracle.

[Applesmack]

No, it is not considered a miracle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%...the_Vistula.22

the Battle of Warsaw is often referred to in Poland as the "Miracle at the Vistula".

[Oklop]

No, it is not considered a miracle.

?Cud nad Wisłą?

[Polish Cavalryman]

?Cud nad Wisłą?

Proper name is Bitwa Warszawska. Only clergy called it a miracle.

[Applesmack]

Proper name is Bitwa Warszawska. Only clergy called it a miracle.

No they don't. Anyone with half a fly's brain would consider it a miracle:

Before the Polish victory at the Vistula, both the Bolsheviks and the majority of foreign experts considered Poland to be on the verge of defeat. The stunning, unexpected Polish victory crippled the Bolshevik forces. In Vladimir Lenin's words, the Bolsheviks "suffered an enormous defeat".[3]

And that victory was also as much of a Soviet blunder as Polish tactics success.

[Jingles]

Considering that the USSR was at the time under attack from literally all directions from about a dozen different countries, not to mention the civil war, I'd say their performance was rather impressive.

Also, troll thread is troll thread.

[Polish Cavalryman]

Considering that the USSR was at the time under attack from literally all directions from about a dozen different countries, not to mention the civil war, I'd say their performance was rather impressive.

And Poland was just being formed. Don't forget about that.