Javilineers

[Ajidica]

How does one best use Javilinmen? (Specificaly Pelastoi). They won't really work if I place them behind my infanry, but if they go in front they get off one volly at most before they have to withdraw. This appears to be related to having a relativly long 'reloding' anim where all they do is sit their with their arms drawn back in the 'loaded' position. Then when they do fire it is not in a volly like archers, but in small pockets. So any tips on how best to use Javilineers?

[Jaytee]

I understand your frustration, I would love to know also. I got that frustrated with them I never bother to create Javelin units anymore. I went back and played some R:TW and the javelin units in that are really good. They effed up somewhere along the line.

[Iguanaonastick]

In Europa Barbarorum light javelin infantry worked best operating on the flanks, going around engaged units and throwing javelins at the rear.

In Broken Crescent few units have javelins and even then they tend to be on the weak side, and battles last a short time and cavalry charges are far more effective, so I hardly use them either.

Javelin cavalry on the other hand are neat. The best counter I've found by far to enemy super-heavy cavalry on barded horse. Even lowly Trapezitae can cut down many, particularly when two units of javelin cavalry double-team a unit of bodyguard cavalry. One skirmishes, the other runs up close and pelts them from behind.

The undoing of javelin infantry is the much slower reload time than in Rome: Total War, as well as the inability to fire on the move.

This does not apply as much to javelin-armed heavy infantry, by the way. Their javelins still won't work miracles without a lot of micro-management, but they certainly help. I'm not really sure on how best to use them yet, but I'm playing a game with Armenia now so I ought to learn sometime soon, I think.

[Captain_Aramsham]

Javelins en masse are elephant killers. You'll need a few to bring down a unit of eles, but then you can get about 20 for the cost of a unit of eles...

I find javelins are also very effective when you're defending high ground. As the enemy approaches, a volley or two will disorder, demoralise and attrite the enemy, making them rout that much more quickly once they're in combat. Alternatively, if you can work a unit of jav blokes around the flanks of an already engaged/pinned enemy unit, once again a volley or two of javelins in the back can cause them to route pretty quickly.

Yet another, slightly cheesy way of using javelin men is as heavy cavalry bait with skirmish mode enabled. I've lost count of the number of battles I've won because the enemy general has been chasing my javelineers all over the map instead of supporting and inspiring the rest of his army!!

Bear in mind as well the units only cost about 100 florins or so, so you can't expect too much out of them

[Ajidica]

Thanks. I've always been a bit leery of playing as Byzantium because their primary ranged units are javilin based. Its nice to know I'm not completly messing up there use. Is there any way to adjust their animation cycles or stats to make javilineers a bit more useful? I'm not expecting them to be gods of destruction, but being able to do something besides kill possibly 2 cavalry men and then rout. For the same amount of cost, I'd rather have either another archer or militia unit.

[Legio]

It's not bad to leave them in a melee for too long, and they are also useful for sieges in my opinion. Javelins are great against most troops, and are murderous against other ranged units like archers. One thing I find helps is to change the unit's formation. The default looks like this:


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I change it so that the unit looks like this:


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That way their fire can be concentrated at a more singular point. Also, they won't get pulverized the instant they are caught in melee this way. In my experience they even held their spot for a while before my heavier troops moved in. I prefer to turn off skirmish mode and manage these guys myself tbh.

[Condottiere SOG]

changing throwing times to 1 javelin per 10, 12, or even 15 seconds changes this effectively. I have done this for TLR.

[spartan117]

The idea of the relatively slow throwing animation is to avoid making them insanely powerful. I tend to micromanage every aspect of the battle. This means I dont use skirmish options on units. I would imagine skirmish on javelin units would be even worse then horse archers as they have a short range.

In siege battles, javelins are pretty useful. They are a strong counter to heavily armored units. I tend to bring a couple of javelin units in preparation for a siege. Maneuvering into effective firing positions to target the rear of units is the goal. Nothing like seeing a heavy infantry unit decimated from javelin volleys. From what I remember the byzantine javelins carry axes. While I will avoid most combat with them. I have used them to aid in combat and to hold down ground against some infantry units in settlements. But they will not last because of their terrible morale. But like the byzantine archers they can be extremely effective at their roles if you keep them safe and have good generals leading them into battle. If you allow your javelin units to get into combat with cavalry units or some strong sword unit you have failed. They will get destroyed. If they are on the receiving end of a charge by some cavalry unit they are gone and will be routed. They have like no armor and if they are targeted by enemy missile units they will take massive casualties. But dont worry, even at a fraction of their strength a few well placed javelins in the rear of enemy units will do a great deal of damage.

As the Seljuks I brought some kurdish javelin wielding units into anatolia to help out the rum sultanate. The intention is to counter those insanely armored byzantine general units. However in a field battle cavalry wielding units are much more ideal as their mobility allows them much more opportunities to strike in the rear of some helpless engaged enemy unit.

Like others have indicated, flanking with javelins is indeed an effective tactic. Firing from an elevated position into enemy ranks engaged with your line is also effective.

Plus they are cheap with cheap upkeep and even if they take massive casualties in some instances you can easily replenish them. Hell you can even have them as a missile placement. With the Seljuks I do lot of feign attacks and draw enemy cavalry out, the resulting chase brings them closer to my stationary javelin units waiting in anticipation. Ever seen some medium armored cavalry unit hit in the rear running by some javelin unit. Murderous. lol.

I tend to hate fighting against armies with javelin units and strong cavalry and ranged missile units. Those javelins can seriously damage your front lines. They can be quite frustrating seeing your unit drop in numbers by a quarter in a short period of time. The strong cavalry limits my own ability to quickly charge enemy javelins and the ranged missile units sometimes will take priority of my own archers.

[Captain_Aramsham]

I tend to hate fighting against armies with javelin units and strong cavalry and ranged missile units. Those javelins can seriously damage your front lines. They can be quite frustrating seeing your unit drop in numbers by a quarter in a short period of time. The strong cavalry limits my own ability to quickly charge enemy javelins and the ranged missile units sometimes will take priority of my own archers.

Oh yeah, I agree with this.

I really hate fighting against an enemy with superior missiles. I want to be able to outrange the enemy, all the time. There's nothing more frustrating than having to advance through a hail of missiles without being able to respond in kind.

[Jaytee]

I have just remembered the only time I have ever successfully used them and therefore introduced them into the make-up of my armies is in my Ghorid campaign when I invaded and had to fight the Indian's and their elephants. Once I defeated these two faction is disbanded all these units as they were no longer needed.

[Iguanaonastick]

I shouldn't say the chief ranged weapons of the Byzantines are javelineers. Armenians rely on them far more.

The Romans have cheap levy archers, cheap levy javelinmen, uninspired but decent horsearchers, uninspired but decent mounted javelineers, and that's it.

They also have one high-end heavy-spearman with javelin as secondary weapon. Not too impressive.

So rather than relying on javelins I'd say they're weak with ranged troops in general. (Compare Armenia's better light javelins, two units of heavy infantry with javelins one of which is available earlier, light mounted javelins, and the excellent 100-man-strong armoured javelin heavy cavalry.)

It's a good thing the Romans can hire plenty of Armenian archer auxilia mercenaries, mounted and foot, instead of relying on their own weak ones.

[Mirni]

Javelins seem to be generally screwed up in MTWII. I looked at old EB and RTR ranges and theirs are the same as most mod's have them in MTWII, but for whatever reason they take infinitely longer here. I think you could usually get off 1-3 shots with a peltast or the equivalent in EB before they were on you, while in MTWII you're lucky to even get 1 shot before they've engaged you.

[Spider1110]

i haven't played a faction who uses them recently but if i do use them i try to get the height advantage. that really make much of a difference as you can now use them from behind your other infantry. if you don't have that try flanking although it probably won't work if the enemy still has troops that are not engaged. other than that you can force them to attack troops which are enganged by your infanry in the first line. expect some friendly fire though. but when some varangians or heavy cav cut through your medium infantry it may be worth it. if the enemy waits for you and you're going for a shootout, you can send them ahead to soak up most of the arrows. their cheap, so they are good to fill up your army if your low on cash.

also most of those light javelin units get boni in hard terrain even if it isn't listed in their description so choose the field of battle wisely. as you always should.

[yukishiro1]

I used to think javelins were poor too until I started experimenting with them. Now I think they are borderline overpowered.

Javelin cavalry in particular is crazy good. Even basic cheapo militia-grade mounted javlineers can take even elite units down to about 60% strength before they run out of javelins...and unlike horse archers they are effective against armored targets and they don't take half the battle to do it. They are particularly good at assassinating enemy generals and heavy cavalry units. And when you run out of javelins, you can always use them to charge archer units from the rear and break them.

Even non-mounted javlineers can be very effective. One volley from javlineers often kills about 1/5 of the unit you're firing on. That is enough to turn an even fight into a quick rout once melee starts.

[hypo]

Javelins are SIMPLY AMAZING at siege defense. All you do is clog up the guys storming your walls with some cheapo unit (militia) on guard mode (the aim is just to clog up and delay the attackers). Then maneuver your javelineers to throw javelins into the mix. If you throw the javelins from the rear it will devastate any attackers no matter how tough they are.

Ex. showing javelineers on a wall throwing at the unguarded rear of clogged up attackers on a wall
J = javelin
A = attackers
D = defense
---------------------------------------------------------
JJJJJ ---->> AAAAAADDDDDD [gatehouse] |
---------------------------------------------------------

or similarly
---------------------------------------------------------
[gatehouse] AAAAAADDDDDD [gatehouse] |
---------------------------------------------------------
| | -------^
| J | /
| J | -------^
| J | -------^
| J | -------^
| |

or
---------------------------------------------------------
AAAAAADDDDDD <-----JJJJ [gatehouse] |
---------------------------------------------------------
or
---------------------------------------------------------
AAAAAADDDDDD [gatehouse] |
---------------------------------------------------------
| | ^^^^^^
| | ||||||||||
| |
| | JJJJJJJJJJ



A super super cost effective way to counter much more expensive shock troops that may normally have plowed right through your inadequate tribal spearmen that you may have had normally manning the walls. After using this tactic and seeing how fast their morale breaks (the sudden loss in troops + walls) you'll want to have javilineers in every garrison.

[Spider1110]

i use that tactic with archers and crossbowmen. they have more ammo and although archers don't have the same power they have flaming arrows for moral decrease ans against siege weapons. but if you don't have any at hand a few javilineer are better than more light spearmen.

[ERE_Friend]

In response to many of the recent doubts about Javalin infantry, I thought they sucked too untill I realized they're pretty much normal infantry that can also throw missles as a bonus. I never used them as the romans until I looked at their stats and saw pelstastoi had better defense and attack than many of the lower level infantry. Never leave skirmish on and they work great in a melee. If they're in your battle line they can throw stuff at enemies who haven't quite charged yet or get near which is awesome for defense against other missle units. And if you have other infantry at your disposal you can always have them harass the enemy from the rear for a bit before charging.

[BeingOwned:)SPQR]

Find "export_descr_unit" or EDU in you broken crescent "data" folder...
Find this...

;! unitstart
;! calculate sec_attack_min_delay pri_attack_min_delay training discipline rank_number close_spacing_side close_spacing_frontback stat_heat soldier_mass soldier_number pri_charge_bonus sec_charge_bonus pri_attack_factor sec_attack_factor pri_missile_amount base_moral pri_defensive_skill ground_scrub ground_sand ground_forest ground_snow training_cost upkeep weapon_upgrade_cost armour_upgrade_cost custom_battle_cost
;! variable CLASSE:1 FACTION:GREEK MOUNTED:NONE ARMOUR:NONE WEAPONTYPE:JAV
type             ere jav
dictionary       ere_jav      ; Peltastoi Light Javelin
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Light
accent         Mediterranean
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          ere_jav, 60, 0, 0.6
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw
formation        2, 3, 2.4, 2.4, 2, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri        11, 1, javelin, 60, 3, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    thrown, spear_bonus_4
stat_sec         4, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1.2
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  1, 3, 1, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        -1
stat_ground      2, -1, 2, 0
stat_mental      3, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 180, 73, 128, 45, 180
armour_ug_levels 0
armour_ug_models ere_jav
ownership        byzantium, slave
;! unitend

The first Magenta coloured number, is how long it takes to throw it (or it could be how far they throw it,), change it to 100 or 90 too see, tell me if its the range or speed?, the second number, is how much ammo or is the reload time, not how fast the animation is... you know what, just check the tutorial in the mod workshop, but if you do change the 25 make 100...
I changed those 2 to 100 and 50, the red 3, possibly could stand for 3 seconds of reloading?

Make a back-up though, messing up things in here can be hard to fix...

[Spider1110]

at the beginning of the EDU there is an explanation for all the variables. this is the one your looking for.

; stat_pri      From left to right
;               attack factor
;               attack bonus factor if charging
;               missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
;               range of missile
;               amount of missile ammunition per man
;               Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
;               Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
;               Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)
;               Sound type when weapon hits = none, knife, mace, axe, sword, or spear
;               Optional. Name of effect to play when weapon fires
;               Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)
;               Skeleton compensation factor in melee. Should be 1

so your first pink number is the range and your red number is the number of ammunition. your second pink number is the delay between the attacks so reducing it should have some effect. but most of the time is probaly lost due to the animation and i have no knowledge about that.