[very out of date] Preview 2: The Mauryan Empire

[florin80]

I don`t know if he has made the generals recruitable, but from what I was told the ai doesn`t recruit them generally. Either way, the family members will come of age, marry or be adopted into the family and you can be in the situation where you have less settlements than adult male family members with the implication that each of those guys would have bodyguards with very high upkeep. That`s why I think it`s not a smart idea to raise upkeep too much for bodyguards.

[Caligula Caesar]

They will have the same upkeep as all other factions' bodyguards, whatever figure I settle on in the end And it won't be bankrupting. However, though atm they are recruitable, they are more expensive than regular elephants to recruit and have smaller numbers (of elephants).

[Maurits]

Could be, but they'd be my choise when they respawn for free

[Caligula Caesar]

Well, the Mauryans used a lot of elephants... but rest assured, expanding as the Mauryans will be a challenge.

[Carados]

How are these going to play? Is the infantry generally low quality with the main power coming from the elephants and chariots?

[Caligula Caesar]

The infantry won't be as good as the Greek phalangites nearby, with the expection of the elites, who will be able to hold their own but are only AoRs. The elephants, chariots and longbowmen will be their strengths, though.

[Boom S]

Caligula Casear, I love the preview so far. I've some comments on the units. would you want to hear them or is it too late for that ?

[Caligula Caesar]

Thanks Go ahead. I am open to suggestions

[Boom S]

thanks for the go ahead !

first of all I would like to make it clear that what follows is just my ideas and you are free to use, discard, modify any or all of it.
________________________________

Comments Part 1

there is a very common misconception about Indian infantry and its level of armour protection. mostly because Porus' army is taken as the representative example, which is certainly not the case for the Imperial Mauryas, a far larger and better equipped force.

3 types of armour were used in India in the time of Chandragupta Maurya (this information comes from Arthashastra written by Chanakya, Chandragupta's guru and the man behind his success. can't get more authentic than that )

lohajalika or chainmail
patajalika or metal plates
sutrakantaka or fibres padded with cotton, wool or animal fur, usually in the form of a tunic or a shirt held at the back by strings. in some cases these were covered by leather increasing resistance against pointed weapons.

to put it simply, none of the infantry or mounted units are likely to go to war with bare upper bodies !

secondly, horseriders almost exclusively wore trouser like garments and not dhotis as is depicted. this practice was adopted by Indians from the Persians horsemen. over this they wore knee-length chainmail.

there were some weapons that were unique to India, it will be both historically accurate and interesting if you can incorporate them in the mod. I'll mention them in the discussion about specific units.

#1 Symbol, Ashoka's lion pillar came much later, Chandragupta Maurya's banner depicted the sun, as you can see in the lower part of this coin. http://www.maruphilaque.com/product/...%29./3188.cfm#

This is a simple enough design (similar to the 8-pointed star you have used) that can used throughout the faction giving it a very distinctive look.
my recommendation would be a simple sun symbol on a bright yellow background without any further refinements, it will also look nice on those elephants ! I can make such a flag for you if you want.

edit 1: made a Mauryan flag and a banner.



the white part in the banner is supposed to be empty !
Concludes
Comments Part 1

[Boom S]

a query before I continue, are the uttarpatha soldiers considered greek ? the attire certainly looks like that.
p.s. what is AoR ?

[Boom S]

Comments Part 2

I am not sure why you have written "Samraatya Maurya" at the top. Samraat means Emperor, Samrajya means Empire, Samraatya doesn't mean anything. If you mean Mauryan Empire it would be "Maurya Samrajya".

About the map showing the empire in blue, which is probably from wiki, has the location of the cities wrong. Indraprashta for example would be where delhi is now, quite a bit to SE to what has been depicted on the map.

Unit List :

These are the units that I see, if there are additional units that are not mentioned in the list please let me know.

Pada (Infantry) should be padatik, Ratha (Chariots) correct, Gaja (Elephants) hasti or rana-hasti (war elephant was the term used) and Turanga (Cavalry). asvarohi

Sainika (Levy Spearmen)
(Senani would be a more accurate term for the age)

My comments : overall OK but an upper garment should be added for realism. The name is fine. Headgear is fine.
it's also likely that they would be armed with much shorter spears (no more than a foot over man height in length) which can be used as melee weapons as well as for throwing as javelins. these soldiers would have been from the citizenry and not from the standing army, they won't have had the training and experience to use those extra long spears.
they would have either a short curved kharga or a straight sword and almost certainly a small shield called dhal, no more than a foot or so in diameter, used to parry attacks. I would recommend the kharga since it is a simple weapon/tool that the non-regular citizen soldier would have been intimately familiar with. it is still the case in many parts of India. not to mention it would add a lot of character !
here's the kharga on an Indian Army formation badge. this would be about 2 feet in length.


its origins are similar to the Egyptian khopesh, from agricultural needs.

an example of the simple infantry shield, made from animal hide(buffalo, elephant or rhino), tortoise shell or iron.
when the soldier was using the spear and the shield was not needed it could be slung over the neck either in front or at the back, providing some protection.

summary :
# reduce spear length to one that can be thrown if confronting infantry
[ignore]or used as two handed spears if confronted with cavalry or chariots.[/ignore]
added later: please see post #35.
# add a kharga as the primary melee weapon against infantry. alternatively short straight sword.
# add a small shield. the distinctive 4 bosses you see on the shield for metal loop handles were a feature of ALL Indian shields.
here's a review.
http://chalklands.wordpress.com/2009...rmy-of-bengal/

[florin80]

p.s. what is AoR ?

Area of Recruitment. It means certain units are available for recruitment only in certain regions in contrast with the regular faction units which by fully constructing the recruitment buildings can be trained by their faction anywhere on the map.

to put it simply, none of the infantry or mounted units are likely to go to war with bare upper bodies !

What, even the skirmishers would be armoured?

About your infantry suggestions. In rtw you can only have two functional weapons per unit. You can`t have that guy both throw a spear, fight with it in the melee and handle a sword too. The spear it handles for thrusting isn`t technically(from the model`s and engine`s point of view) the same weapon as the one it is using to throw. What`s more, unless you give the unit the phalanx attribute, you can`t either have spearmen use swords as secondary weapons without some serious side effects.

[Boom S]

1. thanks.

2. coming to that ! edit : didn't mean armoured in the chainmail or metal plate sense but not barebodied as well. the garments did offer some protection however, which is why I was calling them flak jackets.

[Boom S]

Comments Part 3

Ksipati Sainika (Skirmishers)

Ancient Indians were not very big on skirmishers, from what I could gather, line infantry would arm themselves with a throwing weapon or two but standing armies didn't include dedicated skirmishers.
archers from subordinate tribes were usually used in that role. they would have been poorly armoured and the bows might not have been very powerful or long ranged. they would however have been extremely accurate with a high rate of fire since they were mostly jungle dwelling folk who depended on bow and arrow for their livelihood.
if you want you can add such a light archer unit as skirmisher.
possible description :
# headband (not turban)
# bows made of bamboo that would have only a slightly convex curved shape.
# bare upper body.
# no beards or mustaches (in fact none of the Indian units should have beards, a few can have mustaches)

alternatively, if you feel particularly strongly about having a skirmisher unit (and adventurous ) you can create an unit armed with chakra or sharp throwing rings that had about a higher range than most javelins but better at slashing than piercing. therefore much better against unarmoured troops than javelins but much weaker than javelin against armoured ones.
here's an example of a sikh nihang chakram which has remained more or less unchanged over the centuries.


upper right corner. also note the shield and the distinctive 4 bosses.
http://www.mikeloades.co.uk/cms/inde...d=26&Itemid=43

he also says :

CHAKRAM: In India I met the Akali Nihangs, a nomadic sect of Sikh warriors, from whom I learned various techniques for throwing the chakram – a razor edged steel battle quoit – both on foot and from horses and elephants!
Although it was my first experience with the chakram I managed to throw one 40 yards with no trouble at all. The chakram has an airfoil cross section and you can see it working - it really does fly. And it is surprising how quickly one can become accurate with it at shorter ranges.

The tajini method of spinning it on your index finger is the most well known.......

possible description of chakram skirmisher

# Name : Chakradhar Senani
# Dress : no metal armour but the simple flak jackets, kayabandhani (waist band) and dhoti. the dress would be very useful to hang chakrams from. moreover, the risks of nicks and cuts on a bare body from so many sharp weapons would have been simply too great to ignore.
# weapons : chakrams, possibly a small straight sword at the sides ?
# no shields.

[Boom S]

About your infantry suggestions. In rtw you can only have two functional weapons per unit. You can`t have that guy both throw a spear, fight with it in the melee and handle a sword too. The spear it handles for thrusting isn`t technically(from the model`s and engine`s point of view) the same weapon as the one it is using to throw. What`s more, unless you give the unit the phalanx attribute, you can`t either have spearmen use swords as secondary weapons without some serious side effects.

thanks, I was not aware of how the game engine looks at things.

in that case make it a simple javelin thrower who switches to swords after throwing his javelin. that is possible right ?

[Boom S]

Comments Part 4


Dhana dirgha Sainika (Longbowmen)

Better Name : Dhanur Senani

These were some of the most elite troops of the infantry, due to the prestige that archery enjoyed in ancient India's military system. the depiction is quite accurate, especially the sleeveless attire, which was to allow them to use their arms unhindered.
on one vital point, there is a glaring mistake, the bow. reflex bows were in use in India for a very long period as were composite bows. steel was already in use for bow and arrow making by the time of Chandragupta Maurya.
here is a reasonably accurate depiction from a TV drama :


Summary : Change the unit name and the bow ?

[florin80]

in that case make it a simple javelin thrower who switches to swords after throwing his javelin. that is possible right ?

It is, but wouldn`t you also need a spearmen in this army`s roster? Spearmen have a bonus against cavalry and generally, if they hold a good formed line and they`re not flanked they can provide good defence against other infantry as well.

[Boom S]

^^^^
I haven't completed yet !

Thanks Go ahead. I am open to suggestions

I hope all this is ok. I'll stop if you think I'm imposing myself on your ideas.
regards.

[Caligula Caesar]

thanks for the go ahead !

first of all I would like to make it clear that what follows is just my ideas and you are free to use, discard, modify any or all of it.

First of all... wow! I wasn't expecting that much I won't be able to change all of this, since I can't change models, but I hope some may be done.

Comments Part 1

there is a very common misconception about Indian infantry and its level of armour protection. mostly because Porus' army is taken as the representative example, which is certainly not the case for the Imperial Mauryas, a far larger and better equipped force.

3 types of armour were used in India in the time of Chandragupta Maurya (this information comes from Arthashastra written by Chanakya, Chandragupta's guru and the man behind his success. can't get more authentic than that )

lohajalika or chainmail
patajalika or metal plates
sutrakantaka or fibres padded with cotton, wool or animal fur, usually in the form of a tunic or a shirt held at the back by strings. in some cases these were covered by leather increasing resistance against pointed weapons.

to put it simply, none of the infantry or mounted units are likely to go to war with bare upper bodies !

I didn't make the units, actually, I only edited them. If I hadn't, then a lot more would have been shirless Would the padding on the Ksatrya Asva (Light Cavalry) constitute sutrakantaka and the armour on some of the units (incl Gandharan Cavalry) be patajalika? I don't have any chainmail here, could you provide any pics? And what units would wear chainmail?

secondly, horseriders almost exclusively wore trouser like garments and not dhotis as is depicted. this practice was adopted by Indians from the Persians horsemen. over this they wore knee-length chainmail.

That is beyond my skill, sorry (and I doubt I can get anyone around here to do it for me )

there were some weapons that were unique to India, it will be both historically accurate and interesting if you can incorporate them in the mod. I'll mention them in the discussion about specific units.

I had heard that every region has its own weapon... if I can somehow get someone to do some modelling (changing weapons around a bit is easier than adding trousers), then I can add some weapon varieties if you give me a few pics

#1 Symbol, Ashoka's lion pillar came much later, Chandragupta Maurya's banner depicted the sun, as you can see in the lower part of this coin. http://www.maruphilaque.com/product/...%29./3188.cfm#

This is a simple enough design (similar to the 8-pointed star you have used) that can used throughout the faction giving it a very distinctive look.
my recommendation would be a simple sun symbol on a bright yellow background without any further refinements, it will also look nice on those elephants ! I can make such a flag for you if you want.

edit 1: made a Mauryan flag and a banner.



the white part in the banner is supposed to be empty !
Concludes
Comments Part 1

You say it comes later, but I start in 267 BC, in the reign of Ashoka. Why would it come later if it is his lion standard?

a query before I continue, are the uttarpatha soldiers considered greek ? the attire certainly looks like that.
p.s. what is AoR ?

I haven't a clue. Tbh, I found referances that they were used often and looked at the units available. Then I decided that that one would fit as the Uttarapatha Swordsmen I am a bit more lax with my accuracy and research on this than for VII He doesn't look too Greek to me, but it there are any Hellenistic influences, he comes from the north which traded with Baktria a lot.

Comments Part 2

I am not sure why you have written "Samraatya Maurya" at the top. Samraat means Emperor, Samrajya means Empire, Samraatya doesn't mean anything. If you mean Mauryan Empire it would be "Maurya Samrajya".

I don't know. I think I found it somewhere. I also found "Samraaj" as emperor, so I decided to take the "t" version... easy enough to change

[QUOTE=Boom S;7173188]About the map showing the empire in blue, which is probably from wiki, has the location of the cities wrong. Indraprashta for example would be where delhi is now, quite a bit to SE to what has been depicted on the map.

It is indeed. And it is wrong - Mathura is also misplaced I believe. Can you check if the settlements on the map I showed are correct? And I'm not sure Alor should even there...

Unit List :

These are the units that I see, if there are additional units that are not mentioned in the list please let me know.

Sainika (Levy Spearmen)
(Senani would be a more accurate term for the age)

My comments : overall OK but an upper garment should be added for realism. The name is fine. Headgear is fine.
it's also likely that they would be armed with much shorter spears (no more than a foot over man height in length) which can be used as melee weapons as well as for throwing as javelins. these soldiers would have been from the citizenry and not from the standing army, they won't have had the training and experience to use those extra long spears.
they would have either a short curved kharga or a straight sword and almost certainly a small shield called dhal, no more than a foot or so in diameter, used to parry attacks. I would recommend the kharga since it is a simple weapon/tool that the non-regular citizen soldier would have been intimately familiar with. it is still the case in many parts of India. not to mention it would add a lot of character !
here's the kharga on an Indian Army formation badge. this would be about 2 feet in length.


its origins are similar to the Egyptian khopesh, from agricultural needs.

an example of the simple infantry shield, made from animal hide(buffalo, elephant or rhino), tortoise shell or iron.
when the soldier was using the spear and the shield was not needed it could be slung over the neck either in front or at the back, providing some protection.

summary :
# reduce spear length to one that can be thrown if confronting infantry
[ignore]or used as two handed spears if confronted with cavalry or chariots.[/ignore]
added later: please see post #35.
# add a kharga as the primary melee weapon against infantry. alternatively short straight sword.
# add a small shield. the distinctive 4 bosses you see on the shield for metal loop handles were a feature of ALL Indian shields.
here's a review.
http://chalklands.wordpress.com/2009...rmy-of-bengal/

Those are rather difficult. Maybe at some point after the units for VII are done I can get Tony to work around the model a bit so that the spear is shorter and change the shield (I can reskin it, but the shield model would still need changing). There are some fine shields in that link, and I'll try to make use of them. Also, it is unfortunately not possible to have another melee weapon along with a spear (except for phalangites), so I could add a throwing spear, but not a sword.

Comments Part 3

Ksipati Sainika (Skirmishers)

Ancient Indians were not very big on skirmishers, from what I could gather, line infantry would arm themselves with a throwing weapon or two but standing armies didn't include dedicated skirmishers.
archers from subordinate tribes were usually used in that role. they would have been poorly armoured and the bows might not have been very powerful or long ranged. they would however have been extremely accurate with a high rate of fire since they were mostly jungle dwelling folk who depended on bow and arrow for their livelihood.
if you want you can add such a light archer unit as skirmisher.
possible description :
# headband (not turban)
# bows made of bamboo that would have only a slightly convex curved shape.
# bare upper body.
# no beards or mustaches (in fact none of the Indian units should have beards, a few can have mustaches)

alternatively, if you feel particularly strongly about having a skirmisher unit (and adventurous ) you can create an unit armed with chakra or sharp throwing rings that had about a higher range than most javelins but better at slashing than piercing. therefore much better against unarmoured troops than javelins but much weaker than javelin against armoured ones.
here's an example of a sikh nihang chakram which has remained more or less unchanged over the centuries.


upper right corner. also note the shield and the distinctive 4 bosses.
http://www.mikeloades.co.uk/cms/inde...d=26&Itemid=43

he also says :
possible description of chakram skirmisher

# Name : Chakradhar Senani
# Dress : no metal armour but the simple flak jackets, kayabandhani (waist band) and dhoti. the dress would be very useful to hang chakrams from. moreover, the risks of nicks and cuts on a bare body from so many sharp weapons would have been simply too great to ignore.
# weapons : chakrams, possibly a small straight sword at the sides ?
# no shields.

Having such a unit would be pretty cool and hopefully possible Although, it is hard to tell what the weapon looks like on that image - could you provide a few more, please?

Maybe I should have a light and a heavy archer unit? That would be quite possible with the skins I have (the chariot archer would be heavy).

[Caligula Caesar]

My comp doesn't like long posts atm...

Comments Part 4


Dhana dirgha Sainika (Longbowmen)

Better Name : Dhanur Senani

These were some of the most elite troops of the infantry, due to the prestige that archery enjoyed in ancient India's military system. the depiction is quite accurate, especially the sleeveless attire, which was to allow them to use their arms unhindered.
on one vital point, there is a glaring mistake, the bow. reflex bows were in use in India for a very long period as were composite bows. steel was already in use for bow and arrow making by the time of Chandragupta Maurya.
here is a reasonably accurate depiction from a TV drama :


Summary : Change the unit name and the bow ?

The bow in the pic is what you want, right? I'll see what can be done


@Florin: Let him speak