Campidoctor
i came to a conclusion
i think its better to have one stack only defending a city than several
even when confronted by 3-4 stacks
also i think archers and horse archers and cavalry in general is just worthless
i think spearmen and infantry are the only units that really worth hiring
Praefectus
Re: i came to a conclusion
I can't really agree. Especially horse archers even if AI controlled are really a pain to encounter with infantry only.
Most of my heroic victories were due to cavalry... one time I defeated a whole french infantry (mostly spearmen) stack with 1 light cavalry and 3 generals.
The rest goes to "superior" (then the AIs...) tactical positioning of my archers with the infantry just holding the line till the combined fire mowed the enemy advance into a rout with small pincer attacks from light cavalry.
Primicerius
Re: i came to a conclusion
In sieges, cavalry is nearly useless, especially horse archers aren't worth a crap when used in the streets. I have to agree with you on that one.
But I don't know why you say one stack is better than several, I would like to hear why you think so.
The Enemy of Human Souls
Sat grieving at the cost of coals;
For Hell had been annexed of late,
And was a sovereign Southern State.
Praefectus
Re: i came to a conclusion
Cavalry can still be usedOriginally Posted by JorisofHolland
- against the units pushing the siege equipment or mobile siege units
- to circle around backstreets and to crush into the enemies rear
- quick sorties to eleminate enemy archers out in the field or the enemy general
- delay enemy reinforcements from joining up with the main force
You can argue that preventing the AI from deploying their siege equipment is an exploit but that still doesnt make them nearly as useless.
Last edited by bɑne; April 05, 2010 at 10:20 AM.
Campidoctor
Re: i came to a conclusion
okay check this out
if you have say 12 spearmen units and the rest heavy infantry
than you position all the spearmen one on top the other behind the gate
the heavy infantry will be on the walls countering any siege towers or ladders
this is unbeatable
until the AI wont bring siege weapons and wont start knocking walls down (which he just wont) you can hold off probably 3 full armies like that. providing you have a good general of course.
on the other hand say you have another stack outside
so the computer will do one of two things
1) lay siege with a small army and attack the stack with a large one
that way the garrison cant get out and the stack outside the city will fight in the open
on vhvh that means fight outnumbered in the open
a waste of a stack
2) he will attack the stack and the garrison will be forced to help
again you lose
and even if you win you will not manage to replenish the garrison in time.
so now i play like this:
i have a spear/infantry stack in the garrison
and another one just like that (if possible) hiding in a nearby forest.
i think thats the best setup you can make
Praeses
Re: i came to a conclusion
If you leave only cavalry outside the city then its not a full stack and you can always withdraw from the first AI attack which will draw off a full stack usually so that helps the garrison under siege. If you don't want to withdraw the AI is the attacking army and you can simply whittle down the AI forces and let the timer run down.
Also- piling all your spears onto the gate eh... if it works for you I guess but in my experience when fighting multiple stacks in a siege those units get very tired and by the time the 3rd reinforcing stack appears especially if there are many HC in it those units might rout. Better to keep a reserve not in the fighting and rotate it in near the end. The difference between 8 units piled at the gate vs 12 is not that much. Maybe it is easier on less than VH difficulty when enemy units at the gate actually rout away instead of fighting to nearly the last man.
Campidoctor
Re: i came to a conclusion
i would rather lose a stack than run around the AI for 20 minutes
especially if he has a large army and my comp cant take it on x6 speed
there is a major difference! if you put many stacks than the AI will charge in and get stuck in the gate
the oil from the gate will kill about a quarter of his army and make his troops rout
if you put 8 stacks than he might actually push through into the castle than you lose the gate
AND spears are not such good units you will lose many men
Primicerius
Re: i came to a conclusion
Most of time your army then retreats to another spot around the city, forcing you to fight for it.Or just abandon it and refuse to leave your settlement, of course.
The Enemy of Human Souls
Sat grieving at the cost of coals;
For Hell had been annexed of late,
And was a sovereign Southern State.
Praeses
Re: i came to a conclusion
? That would be a good thing? I am talking about majority of your army in a stack inside the city with a small army of cavalry or HA reinforcing by standing next to the walls outside. If an enemy army approaches and you don't want your garrison inside the city being drawn into a battle as reinforcements vs 3-4 enemy stacks then you withdraw from the battle with your cavalry. If an AI stack pursues your cavalry army who simply withdrew to another spot bordering the city that is perfect... you just isolated 1 enemy stack vs your 1.5- and at the end of the battle your main stack is still inside the city behind the walls! Do that twice and the enemy 3-4 stacks is down to 1-2 while you lost maybe 300 men if you have decent battle skills but even with poor battle skills 1.5 stack vs 1 enemy stack should be quite favorable victory.Most of time your army then retreats to another spot around the city, forcing you to fight for it.
Since the Cavalry stack is blocking 1 area it is more difficult for the AI to get all 3-4 stacks involved in a single siege battle but even if it does and your main infantry army stays inside the city, that half stack of cavalry or HA can distract about least 1 full stack or more of the AI reinforcements for much of the battle allowing your units to hold the walls and fight only 1 stack at a time or come and charge the rear of the enemy stack first at the gates/walls while and get a rout going saving your infantry garrison casualties.
Civis
Re: i came to a conclusion
That's what I thought too untill yesterday. I defended Bucharest with four troops Kasogi and four troops of cuman horse militia aainst a hungarian fullstack with a five star general. The cuman horse militia first killed the General with their bow and then gave the hungarians the rest. In the end every troop od them killed about 300 Hungarians. Sure, I just got lucky there, but it is possible.
Campidoctor
Re: i came to a conclusion
attacking horse archers is indeed hard. because the ones in the rear shoot. while infantry in the rear does nothing. but i think the best thing to do is play defensively. defend your castles and cities and send armies with siege weapons that will end each turn in hiding (in the forest)
than attack enemy castles which are almost empty and you can even auto play it. i love playing defensive battles. cause i enjoy massacring the attacking army in the gate. but attacking a castle is a real pain and i would rather wait for it to be empty and than autoplay it
Praeses
Re: i came to a conclusion
You can do it inside walls if you get lucky with killing a general or the AI does not go and sit in the central square for with everything, it just much harder to micro effectively inside walls with very many HA for me. Open field is much easier and less stressful of units no obeying etc. Or particularly the generals who charge down a street then slow to a walk just before reaching enemy... waste of a charge and you lose 5-10 men retreating to try another charge.
Tiro
Re: i came to a conclusion
i have not had alot of luck with archers either, the ai loves to kill them, i have found that even with pavise crossbowmen, the amount of damage they do is not really worth having them in the army.
every time i bring more foot infantry instead of archers, my battles always end up going much better in my favor.
guess thats just me tho
Re: i came to a conclusion
I prefer javelin troops, they are way more efficient. By the time the enemy has reached the walls, my archers have barely fired enough fire arrows to do sufficient damage. When they do reach the walls, the archers will be firing at a high arch, which really lowers their efficiency.
Praeses
Re: i came to a conclusion
Unless you are an HA faction or England there is no sense bring more archers than foot infantry because they can't do damage fast enough to prevent melee contact where they are ineffective.
However a solid core of archers is great for almost any army... their kill ration is great when used properly and thus they gain xp quickly and can also do massive damage in situations where infantry or even cavalry is at a disadvantage.
You can also use the AI's love of killing archers to lure out their cavalry or general with a cheap unit of archers.
The damage output of archers varies widely between units however so it is important to know which archers are worthwhile and which aren't of much use except for flame arrows.
Pavise crossbows are awesome... saved me many, many battles but the only battles where their true impact is felt are long battle or something like a bridge battle where their long range is more noticeable. I do think playing on VH makes crossbows seem more useful because the battles tend to last longer and long after your archers released all their arrows the crossbows still have 3/4 left.
Crossbows also much more useful when enemy cavalry is dealt with and you can move them around to the flank or rear of enemy formations.
Civis
Re: i came to a conclusion
I recently found a good use of cavalary in cities or castles way. Simply put few spearmen units on both sides of the gate and leave the middle empty. The enemy will surely attack your spearmen. Wait for all of the to get into fight and then charge your cav right into enemy from the empty street, ussualy the enemy starts to rout. This way i easily defeated full stacks while losing only ~60-100 men (most of the casualties were on the walls ). Another way to use them in sieges is to destroy enemy catapults or cannons.
I cant even imagine my army without cavalary, be it heavy, light or HA.
Never argue with an idiot, because he will drag you to his level and beat you with his experience!
Miles
Re: i came to a conclusion
I use horse archers when defending to help make the enemy route after they enter the gates. I set up the open box formation |_| around the entrance to my settlement and close the box with a charge from my horse archers when they run out of ammo. This sends the enemy routing very quickly if they don't have a chivalrous general commanding them.
Domesticus
Re: i came to a conclusion
You've got to know what to use against what.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
...ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Praeses
Re: i came to a conclusion
If you are fighting a battle vs 3-4 stacks any reinforcing army not matter what is in it can be useful. Personally I prefer a full stack of infantry inside the city with maybe 4-5 archers also. The cavalry are outside with the reinforcing army since they can close the distance quickly and charge the rear or enemies trying to force thru the gate. HA can go out and draw off enemy reinforcements with very little danger even if you are distracted if you leave them on skirmish.
Putting infantry in a reinforcing army is doable if there are enough enemy stacks in the siege that the battle won't be over by the time they arrive. Saved me a couple times in really bloody sieges when I had units left on the walls but enemy cavalry had broken thru and controlled the city square. One battle I remember particularly there was less than 30 seconds left on the timer when my reinforcing infantry reached the square at double-time.
Campidoctor
Re: i came to a conclusion
horse in the reinforcing army is a nice fantasy which i too nurtured. in reality the battle will probably go as i said in the post above.
archer on vhvh barely kill anything even if the use all their arrows
and they become a real pain in the ass if you need to move units on the wall.
because in general units are not listening very well to what they are told to do in this game
sometimes it happens that one archer gets stuck in the place and the rest run away
and than if the enemy reaches than he enter melee mode and the entire stack wont shoot because of that one archer
on the walls this happens a lot
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Only joking, siege machines! 
