Unfair western stereotypes of Poland and Poland's role in the Holocaust

[Domen123]

The case of "Polish death camps" is probably known to everyone. This statement is being repeated again and again in western TV and press, and recently even the German TV while transmitting the Demjanuk's trial refered to him as to the "guard in the Polish death camp of Sobibor". But's that's not the end of the story:

Quotation from:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...50767#p1450767

I have argued that the image of Poland during World War Two is not all about a heroic nation. But perhaps that image is complicated. It is true that in many books Poland is portraited as a nation who fought gallantly along side the allies. When it comes to the Holocaust it is a totally different thing, then the Polish nation and Poles are portraited in a very negative manner. Most of the cases it is a matter of false accusations. Let us look at some movies, tv-series and documentaries. (I have not seen all the movies or tv-series, most of this text is based on information from a antology which deals with Polish-Jewish relations)

The movie QB VII (1974) is based on a novel by Leon Uris. In this movie we have a Polish doctor who co-operates with the Nazis and performs terrible experiments on Jewish inmates. Most of the Nazi-characters are in the background and the focus is on Poles. In one of the movies end scenes we can see a Polish flag raised above a death camp.

The mini-serie Holocaust from 1978 tells the story of the fictive family Weiss. In this serie we can see soldiers wearing Polish army clothes working together with the Nazis during deportations of Jews. No Polish soldiers ever did this. In a other scene we are told that the Poles did nothing to provide the Jewish resistance with weapons before the Ghetto Uprising. This is also a lie.

The movie Sophies Choice from 1982 with Meryl Streep is another example of historical lies. Streep plays the character of a Polish chatolic women and her father is a intellectual from Krakow. In the movie her father gives the impression that he knows of a Polish secret document which proofs that Poland planned to exterminate the Jews well before the Nazis!! In one scen Sophie also visits the ghetto in Krakow, but she is doing this in 1938!!

Winds of War is known to all. In the first part, when Byron and Natalie visits Natalies family in Poland there is a scen when they travel to Warsaw after the outbreak of the war and are stopped by two Polish soldiers. These soldiers look like inbreed fools, and one of them have giant warts in his face. They are, of course, also antisemites.

1993 came Shindlers List. In this movie Polish women are portraited as whores. And where are all the other Poles in this movie? It gives the image that the Jewish people where alone in their plight, and they weren´t.

The tv-series Uprising from 1997 with David Schwimmer as one main character. This series describes Poles as cowards, drunks and antisemites. Even one Jewish reviewer reacted against the fact that the series had a stereotypical image of Poles.

In two documentaries, Shoah (1985) and Shtetl (1998) Poles are portraited in mainly negative terms.

Only one movie, the Pianist (2002) is according to me, the most sincere one and it shows the complicated situation in Poland. As I recall Polanski was even critisized by reviewers in the US for showing Jewish Police and their participation in the deportations of other Jews from the Warsaw ghetto.

My main point is that when it comes to Holocaust related issues, Poles have not been portraited in a way which is close to some sort of historical truth. The image of Polish participation in the Holocaust has been used again and again in US productions. This image is unjust, that is my opinion.

Perhaps, some day, we will see a Hollywood production that describes this issue in a more adequate manner, and we will see Polish traitors, Polish helpers, Jewish traitors and Jewish resistance soldiers, who did not hesitate to shoot Jewish traitors on the spot. Or Polish Home Army soldiers killing Christian Poles just beacuse they informed German police of Jews in hiding. These were the realities in occupied Poland. Nothing was black or white. The majority of Poles did not want the Jews the be exterminated, the majority of Poles only wanted to survive the War and that ment that they did not interfer in Nazi policy regarding the Jews, just like the majority of Poles did not rescue other Poles. People were afraid. Why is that so hard to show in movies or tv-series? I have no answer.

Cheers,
Artur

I wonder what are the origins of those negatives stereotypes about the Poles? And what are the real origins of things like "Polish jokes" in the USA?
When did all of that stuff started and who really started that? German immigrants or refugees after WW2? American Jews? Poles on their own?

The question is directed to everyone but especially to American and British people. Let's talk about it in this thread.

Let's talk also about all other stereotypes of Poland and Poles. Why is Polish image in the West so negative?

And, by the way (check the Polish numbers):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteo...uary_1.2C_2008

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ight=Schindler

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=144090

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...1786&view=next

So, honestly - where and why did all of that unfair stuff came from?

[Yorkshireman]

Why is your question directed especially at Brits and Americans ? Poland does'nt really have any particular image in the UK, it's rarely featured on our news, the biggest exposure Poland got was probably during the 80's/Solidarity years.

Poland is too far away from the UK to have any real stereotypes over here, I think your over-estimating the interest there is in your country.

[Domen123]

Because Hollywood is in America, "Polish jokes" are in America, and these are Hollywood movies which portray Poles as antisemties, jerks, fanatics, whores, etc.

It was a Hollywood movie which suggested that the Ghetto in Cracow already existed in 1938 and that Poles wanted to exterminate the Jews before the Nazis.

And I do not direct my questions specifically to Brits and Americans, but to Americans and Brits (and of course all other forum members).

Poland does'nt really have any particular image in the UK, it's rarely featured on our news, the biggest exposure Poland got was probably during the 80's/Solidarity years.

So you say that Polish reputation isn't really so bad in the UK? What do people in UK think about Poland and Poles (if they think anything)?

[pannonian]

So you say that Polish reputation isn't really so bad in the UK? What do people in UK think about Poland and Poles (if they think anything)?

Plombier polonais

Edit: Successful ad campaign with Polish plumber as a main character

The model from the poster, Piotr Adamski, visited France a few days ago, greeted at the airport by - mainly female - French and American journalists. He went there to promote Poland by sitting for the photographers as his main duty. And even if the real plumber does not usually look like the model from the ad, the Polish campaign was very successful. Mr. Zieba, a Polish plumber working in France for years told "The New York Times" (referring to the handsome model): "He looks like something out of an X-rated fantasy film about women who are waiting for the plumber to arrive." Nevertheless, the Polish Tourist Bureau's ad is an excellent example of how to convert a defeat into success and change people's prejudiced attitudes.

[gsoxx]

The model from the poster, Piotr Adamski, visited France a few days ago, greeted at the airport by - mainly female - French and American journalists. He went there to promote Poland by sitting for the photographers as his main duty. And even if the real plumber does not usually look like the model from the ad, the Polish campaign was very successful. Mr. Zieba, a Polish plumber working in France for years told "The New York Times" (referring to the handsome model): "He looks like something out of an X-rated fantasy film about women who are waiting for the plumber to arrive." Nevertheless, the Polish Tourist Bureau's ad is an excellent example of how to convert a defeat into success and change people's prejudiced attitudes.

Did someone just mention Poland and plumber in on sentence?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://forums.erepublik.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=505725
Every country has to deal with prejudices. Germans are nazis, Americans are fat and dumb, Brits are snobbish, speak ridicoulus and have bad teeth etc. Being huffy only feeds the trolls.

[intel]

I'm polish, I love it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Markas]

So you say that Polish reputation isn't really so bad in the UK? What do people in UK think about Poland and Poles (if they think anything)?

Aside from the slobbering xenophobia for right-wing rags like the Daily Mail/Express, the usual fear of incoming foriegn workers taking jobs from natives blew over rather swiftly. As it is, there hasn't been any stereotype of Polish people in the UK before that, except perhaps the more positive one as those who flew in the Battle of Britain. We simply didn't have that much contact with eastern europe the same way the mass sustained immigration that the US saw, which no doubt was a primary contribution to the negative stereotype. Happens to all immigrant people.

As for the productions that are mentioned, I can't really answer as none are British that I know of (one is set in Britain though, QBVII).

[Domen123]

Ok pannonian, nice posters, but still:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4115164.stm

The Polish tourist board has come up with a seductive image of a Polish plumber to counter negative French rhetoric about east European workers.

So the poster doesn't really show what do French people think, but it was made by Poles and tries to fight with negative stereotypes.

Of course that campaign succeeded and a new, positive stereotype of Polish plumber was created. But Poland has to fight for its positive image in other countries.

And negative stereotypes of Poles as drunkers, antisemites, etc. - are very strong. These stereotypes are unfair. I know from my personal experience with English tourists in Cracow and from my friend's stories from London, that actually English and Welsh people use to drink much more than Polish people (when my friend was on holidays with a Welsh couple in Spain, they didn't do anything - for example things like sightseeing, tasting local dishes, etc. - but drinking British beer in a Scottish pub).

Yet the Poles are considered as drunkers, while for example British are not.

We simply didn't have that much contact with eastern europe the same way the mass sustained immigration that the US saw, which no doubt was a primary contribution to the negative stereotype.

But remember that massive Polish immigration to the USA already took place in 18th and 19th centuries, soon after the partitions of Poland - so practically since the very first hours of the existence of independent America. Poles even fought in the American war for independence and later in the Civil War (most on the Union side, but some also on the CSA side). Some of them became American national heroes (like Kosciuszko and Pulaski). And there was indeed no any negative stereotype of Poles in the USA until the 20th century (however, I'm not fully sure if this negative stereotype already appeared before WW2 or just during the WW2 or soon after the WW2).

So what happened in the 20th century? Who started "Polish jokes", antisemitism stories and all other unfair stories about Poles and Poland?

Another American TV show which makes laugh of Poland is de facto Borat. In this show Borat comes from Kazakhstan, but only because of political correctness. In fact the character of Borat was based on "Polish jokes" and represents American stereotypes about Poland and Poles - he even speaks Polish ("Dzien Dobry", for example).

There are many American films which show positive image of Polish (or Polish American) people, but these are mainly war movies which portray them as soldiers.

[pannonian]

Another American TV show which makes laugh of Poland is de facto Borat. In this show Borat comes from Kazakhstan, but only because of political correctness. In fact the character of Borat was based on "Polish jokes" and represents American stereotypes about Poland and Poles - he even speaks Polish ("Dzien Dobry", for example).

Borat is a creation of British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen. Goodness knows what that character was meant to satirise, but Cohen was previously known for Ali G, a satire of middle class suburban wannabe gangsters.

[Domen123]

Oh, sorry, Borat was indeed invented by the British not American. Yet the undeniable fact is that Borat speaks Polish - "Dzien Dobry" ("Hello"), for example.

I know that many English-speaking people don't even realize that Borat speaks Polish because they cannot distinguish for example Polish from Russian.

[pannonian]

Oh, sorry, Borat was indeed invented by the British not American. Yet the undeniable fact is that Borat speaks Polish - "Dzien Dobry" ("Hello"), for example.

I know that many English-speaking people don't even realize that Borat speaks Polish because they cannot distinguish for example Polish from Russian.

Borat isn't History. I highly doubt he is Art either. So this thread might belong in the Thema Devia, rather than the VV.

[Markas]

Oh, sorry, Borat was indeed invented by the British not American. Yet the undeniable fact is that Borat speaks Polish - "Dzien Dobry" ("Hello"), for example.

I know that many English-speaking people don't even realize that Borat speaks Polish because they cannot distinguish for example Polish from Russian.

He spoke a mix of kazakh, polish and russian so he would have an unidentified language so nobody who actually spoke kazakh, polish or russian would be able to understand him.

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

[HansDuet]

I don't really care about Poland.

And whats wrong with Polish jokes? They're jokes ffs.

[Domen123]

I suspect that who really started that stuff, were in fact German immigrants, some of them racists and of Nazi attitude. Maybe German immigrants from the territories which Germany lost to Poland in 1945, after the WW2 (so East Prussia, Lower Silesia, Western Pomerania). Maybe apart from German immigrants also some Jewish survivors of WW2 who emigrated to the USA after they suffered from the Polish communist regime in 1950s / 1960s or blamed the Poles for not saving them from the Holocaust? Or maybe even not Jewish survivors of WW2 who emigrated from Poland to the USA, but native American Jews who couldn't believe that the Holocaust was done without any considerable help from the Polish nation or couldn't believe that Germans are responsible for the Holocaust? What do you think about that?

I suppose that the "German theory" is more probable (however, many Jews at the same time considered themselves German and used the Yiddish language).

Because if it comes to negative stereotypes of Poles in Germany and German belief of being "superior" to the Polish nation - they were not developed by the Nazis, but yet by Prussian militarists in 19th century. In fact negative attitude of Germans towards the Poles did not really exist before the German nationalism started to exist.

English "Polacks" come from German "Polacken", the disdainful word which was for the first time used in late 18th century by a German writer.

All started from the German nationalist and Polonophobe named Johann Georg Forster who lived in late 18th century and who for the first time wrote about "Polacken" and "polnische Wirtschaft" (which means "Polish Muddle") in his book titled "Letters from Vilnius", in which he described the dirt of the city of Vilnius and its citizens.

Then - in 19th century - another clearly anti-Polish book titled "Soll und Haben" was published in 1855. The "Soll und Haben" was presenting the Polish nation in a very negative light ("dirty, stupid, deprived and demoralized") and comparing them to the Germans, who were presented as a much better nation than Poles. The "Soll und Haben" was comparing the German "bürgerliche Klugheit" (which translates as "Citizen's Wisdom") on one side, and the Polish "polnische Wirtschaft" ("Polish muddle") on the other side. 100 years of propagating stereotypes and nationalistic Prussian ideology (strictly connected with Germanisation of Poland) influenced the Nazi ideology.

The racist, clearly anti-Polish and clearly anti-Jewish "Soll und Haben" book, quickly became the obligatory school reading for all Prussian children.

What is ironic is that the term "polnische Wirtschaft" was invented in the city of Vilnius, which is considered Lithuanian, not Polish.

Sources:

http://www.kontrowersje.net/tresc/die_polacken

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/803857

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soll_und_Haben

Soll und Haben

Burgerliche Klugheit

[Hrobatos]

well what i think about Poles in WWII is that they got fuked ny noth Germans and Russians, not really best times for Poland, not wonder you dont like Germans nor Russians( well there s a stereotype...)

[Domen123]

So this thread might belong in the Thema Devia, rather than the VV.

No - this thread is strictly related to history and historical origins of a phenomenon discussed (as my last post shows, for example).

-----------------

Edit:

Intel - I also like some Polish jokes (and some other not), but I'm trying to establish what is their origin.

Every country has to deal with prejudices. [...] Brits are snobbish, speak ridicoulus and have bad teeth etc.

That's actually refers to the French...

Germans are nazis.

Who actually thinks so?

Nowadays there is a huge trend of pro-German revisionism - everybody says that just Hitler was bad, and all other Germans were good.

And the above mentioned Hollywood movies present Poles as in fact responsible for the Holocaust - not Germans.

Germans also use their strong position in the EU to introduce their revisionism policy (like "forgetting" about their own crimes and making a lot of noice around the case of the "Expelled", accusing Poland and Britain of being co-responsible for the start of WW2, talking a lot about Allied war crimes on German POWs and civilians, etc.).

Americans are fat and dumb

Noone reasonable in fact believes in this (while stereotypes about Poland are commonly accepted):

This video is accusing Americans of being dumb

British response to the video accusing Americans of being dumb

German response to the video accusing Americans of being dumb

[Farnan]

There is no hatred towards Poles in the US.

In High School we leared about Tadeusz Kościuszko and many Americans supported Solidarity. Now nobody thinks about Poland really.

[intel]

Polish stereotype as antisemite nation is probably a result of Kielce pogrom.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

[Domen123]

What has the post-war Communism-related event to do with accusations of alleged pre-war and war events?

As we know the Communist party activists were responsible for the Kielce pogrom - not Polish nationalists nor the Catholic Church.

Also - what was so specific about Poland, if anti-Jewish violence took place also in other parts of the Communist-ruled Europe after 1945?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Je...4%E2%80%931946

Also in Germany which was responsible for the Holocaust in WW2, anti-Jewish violence once again took place after 1945, without Hitler's influence:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/GENOCIDE/reviewas5.htm

Post WW2 Anti-Semitism in Germany

[pannonian]

What has the post-war Communism-related event to do with accusations of alleged pre-war and war events?

As we know the Communist party activists were responsible for the Kielce pogrom - not Polish nationalists nor the Catholic Church.

You'll have to understand that the majority of the things you've cited in this thread, with the exception of Borat, go completely over my head, and I'm relatively well-read up on history. For the overwhelming majority of the British population, Poland doesn't register at all, except for those occasions when we meet in football tournaments. We don't know what your culture is, or what your history is (except that Germany invaded you), or anything else really, except that Tomaszewski kept out England in 1973, but Lineker scored a hat trick against you in 1986.