about border prince

[tito]

In the patch 1.4 you are talking about border prince.

Can we see some units?

Do they have some canon and gun units.

Can they really struggle against CHaOS....They just have light cavalery and light infantery

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I believe that the Border Princes were just a barrier between the Empire and the Badlands, so that means that their main enemies will be the Orcs and Goblins.

[Guidrion]

Can we see some units?

Isilendil said they would use fitting units from Rusichi. If you ever played it or one of the mod which use their work, you'll see that we don't have to worry about graphics.
If you were interested in the gameplay matter... Wait and see.

[TheVulture98]

Well the Border Princes are basically Bretonnians who stayed in conquered places after certain Errantry Wars and Crusades so I hope they look very similar to Bretonnians with only a few slight variations because the Border Princes couldn't have shifted too far culturally since the last Crusade. Not to mention the Border Princes often receive aid from Bretonnia so main Bretonnia would make sure they still uphold the tenets of Bretonnian life.

[Mathurian]

Are you sure about that Vulture? I could've sworn the border princes were sort of a mish-mash of Bretonnian, Empire, and Tilean, with a dash of just about anything else thrown in.

[TheVulture98]

Are you sure about that Vulture? I could've sworn the border princes were sort of a mish-mash of Bretonnian, Empire, and Tilean, with a dash of just about anything else thrown in.

Yea there are a few that were founded by Tileans like those such as Khypris but the majority of the Border Princes are under loose Bretonnian rule since the first Errantry War in 471 after the Knights Errant finished with the invasion of Estalia from Araby and cleansed them of the Greenskins. Ever since every once in a while the Bretonnians clean the house and another generation of knights decides to stay as a sort of garrison, this is done due to the reputation of the Border Princes of being a good place to grab land.


The third Errantry War expanded the Border Princes immensely because King Charlen announced that they would cleanse the entire world of the Greenskins and so Bretonnians flooded into the Border Princes to prove themselves to the King.


Also I have reason to believe that the Border Princes have a strong current Bretonnian influence because in the lore the fourth Errantry War is under way right in the middle of the game's campaign the Storm of Chaos by order of the King Leon Louencoeur, According to fluff this was in response to Karl Franz asking for help against Archaon. The Border Princes seems to be a nice stepping stone for a campaign against Archaon.


You can check this all, its in the fluff.


EDIT - 1452 A mighty host of Bretonnian Knights goes forth to Araby by land. The crusaders only reach as far as Blood River as they are slowed down by the massive attacks from Orks and Goblins from the Dark Lands. Some of the Crusaders decide to settle the land and found the Border Princes.


This was included in a timeline of The Round Table of Bretonnia, the largest Warhammer Bretonnian fan site in my knowledge.

[Vaz]

Are you sure about that Vulture? I could've sworn the border princes were sort of a mish-mash of Bretonnian, Empire, and Tilean, with a dash of just about anything else thrown in.

The Border Princes were formed over a millenia previously by Bretonnians which crusaded over land but the war ended before they could ge there, having been caught up in defeating the Greenskins surrounding the Dwarven holds, creating a long friendship with the dwarves.

However, with over a thousand years seperation from the homeland, and no longer hoding value to the code of chivalry and the Lady of the Lake, fighting for both money, and prestige. That's the official canon, and has been from the very beginning of their inception.

Khypris is all that remains of the Khyprian Empire - basically what Constantinople is, while the Border Princes are the Venetians, the first Errantry War being the equivalent of the 4th Crusade.

I always thought that the Border Princes were hated by the Bretons due to forgoing the code - but they've never been under Bretonnian Rule - they may have been officially, but now they are their own people.

What they have seem to have done is placed both Sicily and Venice together in the Border Princes (Sicily coming from Norman Knights, and Venice for the 4th Crusade representation), yet they are already represented in the Island of Sartosa and the City State of Verezzo.

The Border Princes though stand between the Badlands (where Greece and Turkey is effectively, home to the former ancient Khyprian empire - name obviously from Cyprus), and Tilea - to get to the North, though, they've got to cross the southern spine of the Worlds Edge Mountains, Sylvania, and then the hills through which the Chaos hordes are rampaging. Alternatively, they take the road to the east of the WE mountains, and risk the Ogre and Greenskin Tribes.

It would make more sense to travel through the relatively oppen and "clean" lands of the Tileans and then head up through southern Breton, and travel through the pass guarded by the former Blood Keep.

[TheVulture98]

The Border Princes were formed over a millenia previously by Bretonnians which crusaded over land but the war ended before they could ge there, having been caught up in defeating the Greenskins surrounding the Dwarven holds, creating a long friendship with the dwarves.

However, with over a thousand years seperation from the homeland, and no longer hoding value to the code of chivalry and the Lady of the Lake, fighting for both money, and prestige. That's the official canon, and has been from the very beginning of their inception.

According to the codex they have not been seperate for thousands of years and in fact the last crusade into the Border Princes was just a few hundred years from the Storm of Chaos. Also there is an Errantry War at the time of the Storm of Chaos which in the fluff caused Knights to enter the Border Princes as well as the Empire to bolster the defense against Archaon. They can't have greenskins meddling with the defense of the Empire from Archaon and so Knights Errant earn glory by making sure they don't come into it in the Border Princes.

Khypris is all that remains of the Khyprian Empire - basically what Constantinople is, while the Border Princes are the Venetians, the first Errantry War being the equivalent of the 4th Crusade.

I always thought that the Border Princes were hated by the Bretons due to forgoing the code - but they've never been under Bretonnian Rule - they may have been officially, but now they are their own people.

If your source for them forgoing the code being that Black Industries product than I am sad for that destroys even MORE fluff laid out by the codex and other GW sources. Also, if they had forgone the code there would be no way that the Bretonnians would allow the Border Princes to stand. They did not let the corrupt regimes of Mousillon stand for far less. That "canon" messes with the principles of the Bretonnian's way of dealing with those that tarnish the honour of their land. If it is canon, it destroys the basic tenets of Bretonnia.

The Border Princes though stand between the Badlands (where Greece and Turkey is effectively, home to the former ancient Khyprian empire - name obviously from Cyprus), and Tilea - to get to the North, though, they've got to cross the southern spine of the Worlds Edge Mountains, Sylvania, and then the hills through which the Chaos hordes are rampaging. Alternatively, they take the road to the east of the WE mountains, and risk the Ogre and Greenskin Tribes.

It would make more sense to travel through the relatively oppen and "clean" lands of the Tileans and then head up through southern Breton, and travel through the pass guarded by the former Blood Keep.

I am not quite sure what you are getting at here sorry. If you are talking about them not going through the Border Princes in the latest Errantry War then look at the past Errantry Wars, in which Knights Errant have braved the Border Princes in search of glory even when the target of the War is nowhere near it.

[TheVulture98]

If you still don't believe me, this is straight from Games Workshop's Bretonnian Codex:

"Meanwhile, a second great crusading army, led by Baron Tybalt, had left Bretonnia and was travelling the long road overland towards Araby. Hearing of the great victory, this force did not press on to the desert lands, though many of the knights smarted not to have shared in the glory, and a great many of them wished to enter the lands of the hated desert kings. Nevertheless, under Tybalt's leadership they pushed into lands that had not been conquered by any civilised race. Seeking glory and honour, they sought out the armies of the Greenskins that plagued these lands, and many great victories followed. The hardy Dwarfs that dwelled in the mountains around these lands rejoiced, for the Bretonnians had dealt a serious blow to their ancient enemies, the Orcs, and they bestowed much praise and honour upon the knights. Rare it was these days for the reclusive Dwarfs to have contact with the world outside their mountain holds, yet this victory ensured that a bond was formed between the two civilisations. These lands later became known as the Border Princes. Indeed, some knights remained there, building great castles in the following decades." - Bretonnian Codex in the Land of Chivalry section, Pg. 33-34.

[Werebear]

Looks like bretonian & =))

GW again own itself...





There no another official pictures about their view.




also some info

The Border Princes is a natural destiny for emigrating peasants and nobles, seeking a better life. Most of these colonists come from The Empire while others come from Tilea and Bretonnia. Many of them are political or religious refugees, but the region is also the natural destiny for deserters and/or criminals on the run from the law.
In former times the Border Princes were largely inhabited by savage tribes of Greenskin but now the land is fiercely disputed by the hardy human colonists and many Orc and Goblin tribes. The human colonists are tentatively organized in tiny kingdoms, small principalities, and independent city-states, but most of them are not better than fortified villages. All of them are targets of fierce Orc incursions and most of them don't survive for very long.
The colonists are somewhat stronger in the north-west while the Greenskin hordes dominate the south-east. Even in the north some Orc and Goblin tribes live in hard-to-reach places like forests and mountains. In the centre of the whole region lies Barak Varr, the great seaport of the Dwarfs. The Blood River is the ultimate frontier, but no place north of the river is completely safe from the occasional Orc or Goblin raid.

[Outlawstar15a2]

It sounds like both sides may be correct and that GW did a poorly executed retcon of the situation.... And failed.

It reminds me of the story of Ollanius Pius (The Guardsmen that saved the Emperor from a mortal blow.) In the first version of the story a Guardsmen saved the Emperor from getting blasted by a Chaos bolter, then it was retconned so a Space Marine took the fatal shot, and then in the most recent version of the story the Space Marine was replaced by a Custodes. Yet Ollanius Pius remains in Imperial Guard heraldry as a youthful looking boy wreathed with a holy light and crowned with olive leaves on his head........ I think a Necromunda regiment has him included in their regimental banner.

In either case GW needs to learn the art of proper retconning.

[Wolster]

TBH the implimentation of the Border Princes is one of the main features im looking forward to in this mod patch, as I quite fancy playing a human faction, but dont like the foppish Empire mobs (despite being lore accurate etc.., i just carnt get into their vibe).

However the Rushi mobs are in a whole different league excellent skins (whether they are lore accurate or not to me is of little importance) I simply wish for good looking battle line as i fend off Chaos/Undead & Orcs.

Excellent patch.

[TheVulture98]

Looks like bretonian & =))

GW again own itself...





There no another official pictures about their view.




also some info

The Border Princes is a natural destiny for emigrating peasants and nobles, seeking a better life. Most of these colonists come from The Empire while others come from Tilea and Bretonnia. Many of them are political or religious refugees, but the region is also the natural destiny for deserters and/or criminals on the run from the law.
In former times the Border Princes were largely inhabited by savage tribes of Greenskin but now the land is fiercely disputed by the hardy human colonists and many Orc and Goblin tribes. The human colonists are tentatively organized in tiny kingdoms, small principalities, and independent city-states, but most of them are not better than fortified villages. All of them are targets of fierce Orc incursions and most of them don't survive for very long.
The colonists are somewhat stronger in the north-west while the Greenskin hordes dominate the south-east. Even in the north some Orc and Goblin tribes live in hard-to-reach places like forests and mountains. In the centre of the whole region lies Barak Varr, the great seaport of the Dwarfs. The Blood River is the ultimate frontier, but no place north of the river is completely safe from the occasional Orc or Goblin raid.

Looks sort of Bretonnian-ish I guess. I am not sure of that though as a Bretonnian player in the game. I would probably rather see them being a lot closer to the Bretonnian models. It would be a great way to appease us Bretonnian players. But hey its just a suggestion, the mod is so fantastic but as a Fantasy player I thought I had a duty to at least bring the point up.


May I ask where you got that info, I haven't read that source and wish to devour its valuable info?

I heard that GW did do some retconning a long while ago on the Border Princes. My info is from the latest Bretonnian codex that was released in 2003.


Thank You for hearing me out isilendil I really appreciate it and keep up the amazing work!

[Werebear]

Dark omen and SoTR for unit pics

lexicanum and russian warhammer wiki for info

[TheVulture98]

Dark omen and SoTR for unit pics

lexicanum and russian warhammer wiki for info

Thank you!

Ah yes I see where the info is coming from now. It is coming from a Black Industries product called Renegade Crowns: A Guide to the Border Princes that GW sanctioned. They messed with the fluff for the purposes of creating their own Mad Max wonderland and we are stuck with it.... *sigh*

As a Bretonnian player this is both saddening and infuriating but unfortunately it is canon. GW needs to stop giving companies the right to produce stuff for them, they are worse than GW at making sure it all runs smoothly fluffwise.

[Outlawstar15a2]

Thank you!

Ah yes I see where the info is coming from now. It is coming from a Black Industries product called Renegade Crowns: A Guide to the Border Princes that GW sanctioned. They messed with the fluff for the purposes of creating their own Mad Max wonderland and we are stuck with it.... *sigh*

As a Bretonnian player this is both saddening and infuriating but unfortunately it is canon. GW needs to stop giving companies the right to produce stuff for them, they are worse than GW at making sure it all runs smoothly fluffwise.

Two words: Electronic Arts

Nuff said.

[Vaz]

The Timeline states that 2488 is the last year of the 88 year errantry war, but that merely that the Knights of Bretonnia merely aided the Border Princes. In 1452, they simply state that some stay and build castles and forts in the Badlands.

I did not also say "thousands" of years, I said "thousand" - the year it began was 1452 - it's now 2522. That is seperate for a thousand years. As to the next comment - where is that? In the Storm of Chaos, it states that they crossed the Grey Mountains at the Helmgart Pass near Montfort, which takes them North.

The only mention of the Border Princes in the text in reference to this occasion is "...under Tybalt's leadership they pushed into lands that had not been conquered by any civilised race. Seeking glory and honour, they sought out the armies of Greenskins that plagued these lands, and many great victories followed... These lands later became known as the Border Princes. Indeed some knights remained there, building great castles in the following years."

Other official GW canon from previous years (pre 95 stuff) has stated that the Border Princes are no longer the knights of Bretonnia, and is instead full of semi-Bandit Kings who use their history of fuedalism to extort the people who work their lands, so corrupted they have become by the Tilean City State and Merchant Princes.

The point I was getting at was that travelling to Araby during the Errantry Wars was a choice of going either through Arabyan held Estalia, or risking the Badlands. The other Errantry Wars have all been directed against the Greenskins - the simple fact that the Greenskins infest the lands around the Border Princes means that it is the obvious target.

The Border Princes were aided by the Bretons simply because King Charlen realised that they were the greatest barrier to allowing the trade with Tilea and the like to continue safely, and thus secure Bretonnia. Dread Pass is also a pass into Bretonnia from Tilea across the Apuccini Mountains - hence the obvious encroachment of Greenskin territory.

[TheVulture98]

The Border Princes were aided by the Bretons simply because King Charlen realised that they were the greatest barrier to allowing the trade with Tilea and the like to continue safely, and thus secure Bretonnia. Dread Pass is also a pass into Bretonnia from Tilea across the Apuccini Mountains - hence the obvious encroachment of Greenskin territory.

And you don't think the bretonnians wouldn't reassert their rule? They wouldn't even bring their vassals to justice for their separation from the code? The Bretonnians would have increased their influence in the region once more. In my opinion the BRetonnians stopped asserting influence in 2488, less than half a century from the present.


Even if they didn't though there still would have been knights that took advantage of the Border Princes' reputation of wealth, its like the American dream in a way.

So they may nto act like Bretonnians fully, but there is no reason to assume they look different as well. Bretonnian armour isn't too hard to make or anything.


I am just saying that in all likeliness the Border Princes should have a striking resemblance to the Bretonnians in many cases if not actual Bretonnians who recently decided to stay. They also will have other factions in there as well but there should be a sizable Bretonnian influence. Do you not agree?

p.s I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

[Vaz]

Full Plate Armour is hard to make by definition

As to appearance, well, living a millenia in a completely different enviroment will mean that the warriors are going to take on local customs and equipment as part of their own.

For example - try Rhodesia. Although the White inhabitants of what was Rhodesia didn't especially like the Blacks (all racism excluded), they also recognised the value in wearing light or loose fitting clothes compared to the tight and stiff uniforms they used to wear.

In a more modern example, I spent 4 days in Afghanistan wearing standard Desert DPM, and combat harness. However it wasn't that suitable, and I soon stripped down - I hacked down the sleeves to a shirt vest, wore a Shemagh, and cotton poncho, and I was more suited to the environment.

It's why there's always an noticeable difference between soldiers. Twin Brothers who serve in the same regiment, doing the same thing are about to go out to Afghanistan. 1 breaks his leg, and spends the war in hospital. He quickly adjusts to the routine of the hospital to make his life easier, but should he go back out to the front line, he's a newbie. His brother however is perfectly used to the situations outside - for example, hearing the whine of a mortar round has a different sound if it's landing and you're in it's radius, to the one when you're outside.

That takes a few months to get used to - they've spent 1000 years, so change does happen.

[TheVulture98]

Full Plate Armour is hard to make by definition

As to appearance, well, living a millenia in a completely different enviroment will mean that the warriors are going to take on local customs and equipment as part of their own.

For example - try Rhodesia. Although the White inhabitants of what was Rhodesia didn't especially like the Blacks (all racism excluded), they also recognised the value in wearing light or loose fitting clothes compared to the tight and stiff uniforms they used to wear.

In a more modern example, I spent 4 days in Afghanistan wearing standard Desert DPM, and combat harness. However it wasn't that suitable, and I soon stripped down - I hacked down the sleeves to a shirt vest, wore a Shemagh, and cotton poncho, and I was more suited to the environment.

It's why there's always an noticeable difference between soldiers. Twin Brothers who serve in the same regiment, doing the same thing are about to go out to Afghanistan. 1 breaks his leg, and spends the war in hospital. He quickly adjusts to the routine of the hospital to make his life easier, but should he go back out to the front line, he's a newbie. His brother however is perfectly used to the situations outside - for example, hearing the whine of a mortar round has a different sound if it's landing and you're in it's radius, to the one when you're outside.

That takes a few months to get used to - they've spent 1000 years, so change does happen.

You do have good points. My counter-point to you is that they estabilished the local customs themselves as it was them who first colonized the place, which was different from Rhodesia.

Also in Afghanistan its a completely different environment to what your used to right? You don't live in a harsh desert normally. You adapt to the environment because you need to in order to survive. Where as in the Border Princes I can't see it being radically different (the ones near Blood River anyways) so there would be no need to change and so they would use what they know already to survive. Change happens because it is necessary not because they want to. No one likes change.

As for the Twin Brothers that is really a mental change to your environment and would probably not change your appearance too much. Your personality most certainly but that's not really my concern.


Ahhhh....I love a good discussion.