War of the Silmarils

[Kiliç Alì]

I'm not so sure... thingol had been in Aman, so may be considered eldar, and married a maiar... and Tolkien's statement is clear:
"There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn. By the last the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored."
(Google Miracoulus)

but yes, surely their heirs were sindar

[Colonel Cleg McLeg]

Luthein was not Eldar, Thingol and all his heirs were Sindar.

Actually, "Eldar" applies to all elves who began the great journey, so the Sindar are Eldar, as are the Nandor.

[Ngugi]

I'm not so sure... thingol had been in Aman, so may be considered eldar, and married a maiar... and Tolkien's statement is clear:
"There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn. By the last the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored."
(Google Miracoulus)

but yes, surely their heirs were sindar

Eldar was those who joined the march west a long time ago, thus it is the vanyar, noldor and teleri (Thingol; Luthien).
If one wish for it to remain lore accurate then, only avari should be able to get married to Men - but in Beleriand there was only noldor, sindar and nandor - who all of them is eldar.
[based upon the Silmarillions accounts]


(And off topic I claim that Dior was neither Man nor Elf but Half elven; this was before Illuvatar decreded that the hybrid offspring had to choose "side". And Luthien was still elven, though mortal, she did not change body when she came back, think Thingol would have noticed..)


EDIT: Ops, you said the same thing about sindar/nandor Colonel Cleg McLeg, saw it to late!

[alreadyded]

While Eldar can be applied to all that started the journey (and even loosely to all Elves even the Nandor), only those that actually went were called Eldar in later days. It means West Elves, so the ones that went furtherest West were eventually called Eldar. The ones that never left were eventually called Sindar, which means Grey or Middle Elves. The Sindar had a Maiar so they had some influence from the West, making them a step up from the Dark Elves.

In the early days West Elves meant Elves traveling into the West. In later days it comes to mean Elves that have been to the West. The classifications are used in multiple contexts. But categorization is necessary for specificity. So simply calling them all Eldar is like saying Humans and Primates are both animals. Just a more general categorization.

[Ellin Athinaios]

Actually, "Eldar" applies to all elves who began the great journey, so the Sindar are Eldar, as are the Nandor.

Exactly, and

...thingol had been in Aman...

Thingol had never been in Aman.

[Ellin Athinaios]

While Eldar can be applied to all that started the journey (and even loosely to all Elves even the Nandor and Avari), only those that actually went were called Eldar in later days.

It can't be applied to the Avari, as those never started the journey.

It means West Elves, so the ones that went furtherest West were eventually called Eldar.

Actually Eldar means Star People. Those guys really loved the stars back then before the Sun and the Moon appeared.

The ones that never left were eventually called Sindar, which means Grey or Middle Elves. The Sindar had a Maiar so they had some influence from the West, making them a step up from the Dark Elves.

Correct. The Sindar were those who had started the journey but stayed in Beleriand with their lord Thingol (one might also say that their very name comes from him, as Thingol [Singolo in Quenya] means Grey-cloak)

[alreadyded]

It can't be applied to the Avari, as those never started the journey.



Actually Eldar means Star People. Those guys really loved the stars back then before the Sun and the Moon appeared.



Correct. The Sindar were those who had started the journey but stayed in Beleriand with their lord Thingol (one might also say that their very name comes from him, as Thingol [Singolo in Quenya] means Grey-cloak)

At first Eldar applied to ALL Elves, then as time went by they are classified more specifically. This causes some confusion as terms are reused in different contexts.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eldar

As for the Grey-Cloak, I have never heard of that. I assumed Tolkien gave them the name because they were good, but not completely good. Not as good as those that went into the West, but better than the Dark Elves who didn't have the influence of a Maiar.

[Ngugi]

According to Silmarillion ALL who joined the journey west is the eldar; before the journey it was a name for all elves.

Eldar is thus, again; vanyar, nodlor and teleri.
When talking about teleri that means they who went to Aman, those wo stayed in Bereliand, nandor/laiquendi and also the silvan elves.

Elwe (later known as Thingol) went to Aman and saw the Trees together with Ingwe and Finwe. They are the ones who, impressed by Valars land, encouraged the elves to go west.


EDIT: check http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/e/eldar.html

[alreadyded]

The Valar gave the name Eldar to ALL Elves. They did not instantly classify all of their peoples in a single moment. Oromë said, "Hey look at these guys, I will call them Eldar." And he was refering to ALL Elves at the time, he didn't know some stayed behind. Then it eventually came to mean what you say it does. Then it came to mean what I said it does. It is used in multiple contexts and time frames. It is important to realize the need for classification and how it comes to be in science, etc. You go from general to specific, not the other way around. Not to mention the fact that Christopher Tolkien wrote The Silmarillion, and he didn't really know what he was doing.

[Ellin Athinaios]

At first Eldar applied to ALL Elves, then as time went by they are classified more specifically. This causes some confusion as terms are reused in different contexts.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eldar

Well yes, and there you see why Oromë named them Eldar, "Star People", because they were wandering in the starlight. But since afterwards it came to be used only for the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri (including Sindar and Nandor), I think that's what we should follow too.

As for the Grey-Cloak, I have never heard of that. I assumed Tolkien gave them the name because they were good, but not completely good. Not as good as those that went into the West, but better than the Dark Elves who didn't have the influence of a Maiar.

Yeah I know, that's why they're also called the Elves of Twilight. The Grey-cloak is just another possible explanation.

Elwe (later known as Thingol) went to Aman and saw the Trees together with Ingwe and Finwe. They are the ones who, impressed by Valars land, encouraged the elves to go west.

Oh that's right, I had forgotten that. I stand corrected.

[alreadyded]

Oh that's right, I had forgotten that. I stand corrected.

I forgot that too, I thought Thingol just got lost and stayed behind. But visiting for a few days is not going to influence him much. He sure does make a lot of mistakes .

[Ellin Athinaios]

It is important to realize the need for classification and how it comes to be in science, etc. You go from general to specific, not the other way around.

Well, Eldar is a general classification. It applies to all Elves, as you say, even to the Avari (at first).

If you want a more specific classification, you can use High Elves and Dark Elves. High Elves (Calaquendi, literally "Elves of the Light"), were called only those who had actually lived in Valinor. Dark Elves (Moriquendi) were all the others, including the Sindar.

[Ngugi]

Yeah I know, that's why they're also called the Elves of Twilight. The Grey-cloak is just another possible explanation.

Though Tolkien doesn't state this explicitly, 'grey' here clearly has a secondary meaning related to 'twilight'. With the unique exception of Thingol himself, the Grey-elves are technically Dark Elves, Moriquendi, but they are also Eldar of the Great Journey who almost came to the Blessed Realm, and who spent millennia with a Maia as their Queen. Of all the Elven kinds who remained in Middle-earth, the Grey-elves were the highest: it was partly for this reason that they are normally called 'Elves of the Twilight' rather than 'Dark Elves'.

/Encylopedia Arda http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/g/greyelves.html

Good for me, I love sindar

[Colonel Cleg McLeg]

Basically,

Eldar = All elves who set out at the start of the Great Journey, including those of the Teleri who never got to Aman - the Sindar and the Nandor.
Calaquendi = All elves who actually got to Aman, therefore not including the Sindar and the Nandor (with Thingol being the exception).
Moriquendi = All elves who didn't get to Aman, including those Eldar who began but didn't complete the great journey (who were also known as the Úmanyar).

[alreadyded]

Basically,

Eldar = All elves who set out at the start of the Great Journey, including those of the Teleri who never got to Aman - the Sindar and the Nandor.
Calaquendi = All elves who actually got to Aman, therefore not including the Sindar and the Nandor (with Thingol being the exception).
Moriquendi = All elves who didn't get to Aman, including those Eldar who began but didn't complete the great journey (who were also known as the Úmanyar).

We have already been through this, read a few posts up.

[Colonel Cleg McLeg]

I know. I was a part of it. I was basically replying to this:

The Valar gave the name Eldar to ALL Elves. They did not instantly classify all of their peoples in a single moment. Oromë said, "Hey look at these guys, I will call them Eldar." And he was refering to ALL Elves at the time, he didn't know some stayed behind. Then it eventually came to mean what you say it does. Then it came to mean what I said it does. It is used in multiple contexts and time frames. It is important to realize the need for classification and how it comes to be in science, etc. You go from general to specific, not the other way around. Not to mention the fact that Christopher Tolkien wrote The Silmarillion, and he didn't really know what he was doing.

I've never seen anything that says that "Eldar" referred only to the High Elves later on; the only definition I've come across for the term (aside from the earlier meaning) is that it referred to all those who began the journey.

[alreadyded]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Cuiviénen

Eru first awoke the Elves there in approximately 1050 of the Years of the Trees. From the first they were divided into three groups: the Minyar, Tatyar, and Nelyar. They dwelt in Cuiviénen for more than five hundred years of the sun before the first sundering. Many of the Elves, particularly of the Minyar and Tatyar, journeyed west to Valinor and, if they did not tarry in Middle-earth, saw its light and became known as the Eldar. Those who remained were called the Avari, the unwilling, for they did not desire to see the beauty of that land, but preferred the starlight of Cuiviénen.

Tolkien uses Eldar, not High Elves. TATW uses High Elves, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the Hobbit or LOTR. Maybe it says High Elves in the Silmarillion, but Chris Tolkien wrote that. Again, it is used in many different contexts and so can have many different meanings, depending on when you apply it.

[Ngugi]

I forgot that too, I thought Thingol just got lost and stayed behind. But visiting for a few days is not going to influence him much. He sure does make a lot of mistakes .

Naaw, can't say, if he would have, then he wouldn't ruled for many thousand years.
His mistakes came when the strong emotions of his daughter and the silmarills was involved, the first is quite natural (to care about children) and the silmarills powers made him greedy for it (Quenta Simarillion, chapter 20)

Looking foreward to play Doriath and Elu Thingol
Long to view a rooster ^^

[alreadyded]

Naaw, can't say, if he would have, then he wouldn't ruled for many thousand years.
His mistakes came when the strong emotions of his daughter and the silmarills was involved, the first is quite natural (to care about children) and the silmarills powers made him greedy for it (Quenta Simarillion, chapter 20)

Looking foreward to play Doriath and Elu Thingol
Long to view a rooster ^^

Well his kingdom was assundered from all other Elves, he didn't help anyone but himself, only cared about his kingdom, never listened to his all-knowning Goddess wife. He even got quite a few people killed and set some epic events in motion by not let letting people travel through his land. Not that in the end it would have mattered if he helped, because they couldn't have overthrown Morgoth anyway, as the Valar foretold. The Girdle of Melian was the only reason Doriath lasted so long. Plus the Noldor saved their butts from Morgoth.

[Ngugi]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Cuiviénen

Tolkien uses Eldar, not High Elves. TATW uses High Elves, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the Hobbit or LOTR. Maybe it says High Elves in the Silmarillion, but Chris Tolkien wrote that. Again, it is used in many different contexts and so can have many different meanings, depending on when you apply it.

Tareldar should be the term of the Calaquendi, meaning high elves, if I'm not wrong? Quenya means high elven at least.
About High elves;
http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/h/highelves.html http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/High_Elves

Belive in FotR, chapter Three is company where the hobbits meet Gildor and other elves, they are called high elves? Do only got the swedish translation so cant say for sure..*

Well his kingdom was assundered from all other Elves, he didn't help anyone but himself, only cared about his kingdom, never listened to his all-knowning Goddess wife. He even got quite a few people killed and set some epic events in motion by let letting people travel through his land. Not that in the end it would have mattered if he helped, because they couldn't have overthrown Morgoth anyway.

Not from the children of Finarfin, Galadriel lived in his realm and Finrod was a friend for example. You'll have to remeber that the guests he got proved to be kin slayers of his, murderers of friends and family to his people.
He most likely listened to Melian most of the time, thats the picture you get, and she's not to happy about noldor either.
ALL elven leader got people killed one way or another, thats no menaingfull argument, rather quite few died beside the First Batlle of Berleriand and the Fall of Doriath.
And since Tolkien considered destiny be a part of his world epic events one should be carefull to blame Thingol to fast.
I agree he did not do all thing's right but he's not a bad king all together.


EDIT: *"The song ended. 'These are High Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!' said Frodo in amazement, 'Few of that fairest folk are ever seen in the Shire. Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea. This is indeed a strange chance!'"