Christianity was a great liberator; what went wrong? Can it change?

[Amorphos]

Christianity was a great liberator; what went wrong? Can it change?

Briefly I see Christianity as originally a force for some good, where for example in Greece you had the masses put down as going to Hades when they die [- good way to control them] and only hero’s can pop in out of there and then get to Elysium. Then in western Europe you had he celts, iberians and germans all whom to some degree followed a roughly similar faith; druidry, now imagine preist + judge, in my mind that can only equal oppression [also consider sex and death rituals and human sacrifice that went on untul the norse finally converted]. Maybe I misinterpret some of that but that’s not the point here…

You can imagine the rest, and sure they all had more salient features, but generally I think we can see Christianity originally as a great liberator, lifting the weight of centuries, millennia even, of oppression of the people. However within Christianity lies the seeds of its own demise Imho e.g. those early Christians tore down the library at Alexandria persecuted and killed a female philosopher as a witch [cant remember her name] and destroyed centuries of great learning. So on the one hand they gave light and release to the ordinary people, later opposing money lending etc, and giving rise to peoples revolts and liberalism even anarchism. Then with the other hand, they plunged us into a kind of literate darkness as far as they could.

Some Christians even view intelligence as immoral somehow, so in short, what I am asking is, do the scriptures give us any potential for change? Is there any need for oppression and anti universal education & intelligence, or can there be a new Christianity that recognises truth and only seeks to change things by that ~ rather than oppression?

[Veni]

Christianity was a great liberator; what went wrong? Can it change?

Briefly I see Christianity as originally a force for some good, where for example in Greece you had the masses put down as going to Hades when they die [- good way to control them] and only hero’s can pop in out of there and then get to Elysium. Then in western Europe you had he celts, iberians and germans all whom to some degree followed a roughly similar faith; druidry, now imagine preist + judge, in my mind that can only equal oppression [also consider sex and death rituals and human sacrifice that went on untul the norse finally converted]. Maybe I misinterpret some of that but that’s not the point here…

You can imagine the rest, and sure they all had more salient features, but generally I think we can see Christianity originally as a great liberator, lifting the weight of centuries, millennia even, of oppression of the people. However within Christianity lies the seeds of its own demise Imho e.g. those early Christians tore down the library at Alexandria persecuted and killed a female philosopher as a witch [cant remember her name] and destroyed centuries of great learning. So on the one hand they gave light and release to the ordinary people, later opposing money lending etc, and giving rise to peoples revolts and liberalism even anarchism. Then with the other hand, they plunged us into a kind of literate darkness as far as they could.

Some Christians even view intelligence as immoral somehow, so in short, what I am asking is, do the scriptures give us any potential for change? Is there any need for oppression and anti universal education & intelligence, or can there be a new Christianity that recognises truth and only seeks to change things by that ~ rather than oppression?

Tell that to the saxons, gays, pagans, freethinkers, native americans, aborginians, arabs, africans and everyone else who have been massacred by the christian plague.

[SigniferOne]

Tell that to the saxons, gays, pagans, freethinkers, native americans, aborginians, arabs, africans and everyone else who have been massacred by the christian plague.

Get off your high horse, Christ never enjoins on anyone to kill gay people, this was merely something that medieval (barbaric) Christians did along with other things, such as killing Jews, slicing up their own entrails, and other such things. As early as the 15th century practical executions of gay people were abolished in Italy, although it was well known for such practices. As for pagans, they converted to Christianity, and converted en-masse because it was far more intellectually supportable, e.g. Gaius Victorinus who was a major Roman philosopher and intellectual, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius_Victorinus.Freethinkers were disproven by Christian intellectuals, which is why the Masons could never stand up to the Jesuits in a stand-up debate, for they were always proven wrong. I don't think you'll be able to defend native Germanic culture very well, for it was awful and barbaric, with vast sacrifices of humans and rule by brute violence of a brutish and illiterate people. Native Americans were defended by Christian clergy against slave-raiders, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_Reductions. And Arabs should hardly have invaded France and taken over Spain if they were to talk about anything. Your vile and vicious interpretation of history is uneducated on every single fact.

[jankren]

Get off your high horse, Christ never enjoins on anyone to kill gay people,

Yeah, only his god did and since Jesus and god were the same person then by logic it was also Jesus who said homosexuals are abominations who must be put to the death.

[maerd2003]

Tell that to the saxons, gays, pagans, freethinkers, native americans, aborginians, arabs, africans and everyone else who have been massacred by the christian plague.

yeah, the romans were living in absolute peace and justice before christianity(!), jesus ruined it all..

anyway, its people's fault(kings, pope, etc..) that those people were killed, not a religion's.

[Orko]

Tell that to the saxons, gays, pagans, freethinkers, native americans, aborginians, arabs, africans and everyone else who have been massacred by the christian plague.

Plague?
I am sorry, but I might have to report you.
Saying "christian plague" is no different then saying "Jewish plague", for example. Both are just as bad.

[PointOfViewGun]

Church happened.

[Amorphos]

Tell that to the saxons, gays, pagans, freethinkers, native americans, aborginians, arabs, africans and everyone else who have been massacred by the christian plague.

Well that’s what I was saying, that it seams to have inherent flaws, or people read it as such. it was also a liberator though.

[vecordia]

My opinion referring to Tacitus: "..that evil arisen from Judea...":
Like the most of bigger religions Christianity has it main purpose to life after death.
I don't think it has liberating face, quite the opposite it favours some kind of coercion.

God-> his many right hands(jesus, holy one, archangels,etc.)->saints(blessed by god)-> his faithful people favoured for their loyality(those who are with him after their death).
He has even enemy ->fallen former angels, etc

Clear hierarchy, clear control tree. Does omnipotent god (which christian god claims himself so) would make this?

The other side is the politic, how it was growing up in the cultural veins of Imperial Rome, and how it was triumphal flooding onto countries, continents, planet. In the origins it soungs perhaps very liberating (kingdom of heaven, great old god who favours his braved servants, great price for those who believe him) but it isn't in reality.

Great part of christianity is marked rather bad than liberate. Everybody can read this from history.

Church happened.

And that is another reason, political one.

None religion will stand the clash of philosophy or even logic

[PointOfViewGun]

And that is another reason, political one.

None religion will stand the clash of philosophy or even logic

I believe church is the only reason. They turned a peaceful and personal religion into the largest enterprise of the world.

I can't remember where it's from but I remember a quote that was something like this:

There were no apostles. There were twelve liars and they built the church upon those lies.

[Tankbuster]

Which would be accurate except that the apostles weren't liars. And that they didn't build the church.

Come to think of it, the statement is actually not that accurate at all.

[PointOfViewGun]

Which would be accurate except that the apostles weren't liars. And that they didn't build the church.

Come to think of it, the statement is actually not that accurate at all.

Well, I've been trying to find the quote for 2 years now. I believe I've seen it on The Tudors but can't find it anymore. The statement can of course be different. Maybe it was actually referring to founders of the church and not the apostles and that I remember wrongly.

[Amorphos]

0N3

we need to be liberated again... this time from Jesus

Or from just about everything inc atheism, though I cant see what was so bad about jesus?

Tankbuster

Good people will usually stay good people, and Christianity has always been able to appeal

that’s very true, I think Christianity changed what it was to be good though, which may or may not be a good thing, i think it was more good than what we had before ~ which often taugh evil [sacrifice, war as an ethical ans spiritual value].

just look for the many threads where Christians try to explain why eternal punishment for finite crimes (an obviously immoral action to anyone not infected) is somehow just.

A tool to persuade the perpetrators of immoral actions to change their ways, thats all. like you say, now outdated.

vecordia

If you are looking christianity to reborn it values and reveals new ethical/organizational/substantial appearance, refresh it dignity that's not gonna happen. It's already too centralised and binded by dogmas.
It's not the space where the evolution could spread just like that

.

True of course, however it’s a rather large organisation and change has to happen from within. We have seen it just ignore atheism and any arguments against it, so I do feel a need to propose changes from within. After all the universe is gods creation [if god exists].

Sig

Freethinkers were disproven by Christian intellectuals

Interesting! Can you give us more on this?

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There seams to be something in the idea that the church is to balme for the ills of Christianity, rather than the teachings of christ.

Can anyone name something immoral that jesus stated?

[iudas]

Briefly, many people were born, the times changed, societies grew and Christianity became obsolete. It changed into a hindrance because its ancient ways were simply unnecessary and became a nuisance.

[Fiyenyaa]

When you are the persecuted minority, it's easy to hold the moral high ground. When you are the status quo majority, it's easy to start throwing your weight around at the expense of the current persecuted minorities.
It also helps that scripture has excuses for many excesses and persecutions; either through a literal reading or certain interpretations.

[Amorphos]

Clear hierarchy, clear control tree. Does omnipotent god (which christian god claims himself so) would make this?

Indeed not, but who is to say they are right or even close in their understanding of divinity. There may be something to salvage from the wreckage or it may simply be part of the journey. The previous religions seam equally controlling, even allowing for men to think of themselves as gods.

Great part of christianity is marked rather bad than liberate. Everybody can read this from history.

Indeed, what I am asking here is that all comes from man or divinity? maybe we didn’t understand ~ after all xtians weren’t the only or first monotheists, so is it worth a second look? If we understand omnipotence and omniscience, I don’t see how that can add up to something so utterly inane?

[0N3]

No, we need to be liberated again... this time from Jesus

[Tankbuster]

Any dogmatic belief system can have positive consequences, just like it will have (this is inevitable) bad consequences. Whether or not most of its consequences are good or bad depends on the time period, the culture in which Christianity engrained itself, and of course the people themselves.

By and large, I don't think Christianity is as much of an influence on people as it claims to be. Good people will usually stay good people, and Christianity has always been able to appeal to them (and in some cases, amplified their urges to do good; and in other cases, corrupted that urge, cf. Mother Theresa).

Maybe some of Christianity's tenets were revolutionairy back in the day, but it seems that time has long past. Now it serves (IMO) mainly as a perpetuation of irrationality and a corruption of our modern moral sense.
And if you don't believe me, just look for the many threads where Christians try to explain why eternal punishment for finite crimes (an obviously immoral action to anyone not infected) is somehow just.
Or go find the millions of people who will happily proclaim "Without God I am nothing."

What went wrong with Christianity is that some of its positive aspects have stopped being new and useful a long time ago; these ideas now pull humanity down rather than propel it forward.

[vecordia]

Indeed, what I am asking here is that all comes from man or divinity? maybe we didn’t understand ~ after all xtians weren’t the only or first monotheists, so is it worth a second look? If we understand omnipotence and omniscience, I don’t see how that can add up to something so utterly inane?

If you are looking christianity to reborn it values and reveals new ethical/organizational/substantial appearance, refresh it dignity that's not gonna happen. It's already too centralised and binded by dogmas.
It's not the space where the evolution could spread just like that.

No, we need to be liberated again... this time from Jesus

Agreed.

EDIT:

Any dogmatic belief system can have positive consequences, just like it will have (this is inevitable) bad consequences. Whether or not most of its consequences are good or bad depends on the time period, the culture in which Christianity engrained itself, and of course the people themselves.

By and large, I don't think Christianity is as much of an influence on people as it claims to be. Good people will usually stay good people, and Christianity has always been able to appeal to them (and in some cases, amplified their urges to do good; and in other cases, corrupted that urge, cf. Mother Theresa).

Maybe some of Christianity's tenets were revolutionairy back in the day, but it seems that time has long past. Now it serves (IMO) mainly as a perpetuation of irrationality and a corruption of our modern moral sense.
And if you don't believe me, just look for the many threads where Christians try to explain why eternal punishment for finite crimes (an obviously immoral action to anyone not infected) is somehow just.
Or go find the millions of people who will happily proclaim "Without God I am nothing."

What went wrong with Christianity is that some of its positive aspects have stopped being new and useful a long time ago; these ideas now pull humanity down rather than propel it forward.

Good point

[SigniferOne]

That page is also highly misleading, as all freethinkers have tried to be. I also champion reason and do not accept any dogma. In fact it is a central tenet of Protestantism to reject dogma and reason about the universe through their efforts alone. The hidden component of freethinking is not any of what they state in the opening page, but a reactionary subtitle, namely that the received wisdom is somehow necessarily wrong. That is the premise I reject.