Faith

[Desperado †]

Could an employer of this apparent substitute to evidence and logic define and describe this, and perhaps justify its use in making decisions?

Note: I'm talking about the use of the word when it is not a simple synonym of 'trust' but a foolproof basis for decisions.

[Scipio Africanus Maximus]

As you said, faith is more than simple trust. Hebrews 1:1 is the most cited verse on the topic, so I'll use it. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The first part would be better translated as "faith gives substance to things hoped for." Faith makes real to us the things we do not yet possess. If a person has faith that they will be cured of a disease, then it makes it real to them. It is also the "evidence of things not seen." Rather self explanatory.

Basically, faith is belief that is so strong it makes something real to a person. Faith in God makes Him real to that person (note: I am not saying that God is only real to people who believe in Him, simply that faith in Him makes Him effective in their life). Faith in eternal reward after death makes it real to them in life, even if they have no physical evidence of it.

There's my two cents, for what it's worth.

[Fiyenyaa]

As you said, faith is more than simple trust. Hebrews 1:1 is the most cited verse on the topic, so I'll use it. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The first part would be better translated as "faith gives substance to things hoped for." Faith makes real to us the things we do not yet possess. If a person has faith that they will be cured of a disease, then it makes it real to them. It is also the "evidence of things not seen." Rather self explanatory.

Basically, faith is belief that is so strong it makes something real to a person. Faith in God makes Him real to that person (note: I am not saying that God is only real to people who believe in Him, simply that faith in Him makes Him effective in their life). Faith in eternal reward after death makes it real to them in life, even if they have no physical evidence of it.

There's my two cents, for what it's worth.

I think this sums up faith pretty well, and also tells us that it's no proof of anything. It's essentially wishing something into what you believe to be existence.
Or: "I think it's true, so it is".

[Desperado †]

Basically, faith is belief that is so strong it makes something real to a person. Faith in God makes Him real to that person (note: I am not saying that God is only real to people who believe in Him, simply that faith in Him makes Him effective in their life). Faith in eternal reward after death makes it real to them in life, even if they have no physical evidence of it.

Doesn't believing in anything mean that it is real to that believer? I cannot see how 'faith' is a part of that.

And if faith is evidence for that without evidence, why? What makes this strong belief in something sufficient evidence for believing in it? Seems to be a bit of an illogical loop to me.

basics: so you need it to have God on your side, have an intimate relationship with him, and to go to heaven e.t.c, and that it is superior to science, but what is it?

[Scipio Africanus Maximus]

Doesn't believing in anything mean that it is real to that believer? I cannot see how 'faith' is a part of that.

And if faith is evidence for that without evidence, why? What makes this strong belief in something sufficient evidence for believing in it? Seems to be a bit of an illogical loop to me.

basics: so you need it to have God on your side, have an intimate relationship with him, and to go to heaven e.t.c, and that it is superior to science, but what is it?

Many people believe in God, but how many act according to that belief? That is where faith comes in. A person who has faith in God will act differently to someone who simply believes in God. (See James 2:19 for a good example)

Like I said, it makes it real to that person. Like many things dealing with humanity, religion isn't always what we consider logical.

I wouldn't say that faith is necessarily superior to science. To quote Angels & Demons, "There are simply some things science is too young to understand." Can science explain human personality? How about memory? Compassion? Likewise, there are some things that faith and religion do not explain. IMO, each has there areas of strength.

[basics]

" basics: so you need it to have God on your side, have an intimate relationship with him, and to go to heaven e.t.c, and that it is superior to science, but what is it?"

Desperado,

Faith is the power of God delivered to a believer that not only did His Saviour release us from the curse of the Law allowing us to get into heavenly places, yet does more than that in the Spiritual realms. We become heirs like Christ, sons by adoption and priests of the Most High God plus knowing that that same power is behind us as well as in us in all that we do.

We do not need crucifixes since the light of Christ shines from us, nor do we need pictures made in the image of men by men to attend to our Godly journey. For sure no bones or other relics play any part in that journey as Faith is quite enough. Now that is the difference from regenerate man and the man of religion. So fundamentally, Faith is the power of God, nothing else asked for and nothing else needed.

Since God laid the curse of sin, gave us the Law and delivered us a Saviour, it therefore follows that only God can eraze any of the above were that His will to do. Without touching the two former He did just that by providing the latter. Now men have been sinners since the beginning and with all the scientific advancement in some six thousand years it has never come up with a method to eraze sin yet in many ways it has to deal with it, so perhaps we can look at some of these.

It has never conquered disease. It has never conquered retardation. It has never suppressed the desire to kill, to rape, to mutilate. It has never conquered the weather. It has never conquered death. And most of all it has no knowledge of where we are all going at death. At best we can but hope to learn from it to alleviate some of the problems of the above but it being under the same curse it follows that it will never conquer what God can.

[Fiyenyaa]

It has never conquered disease. It has never conquered retardation. It has never suppressed the desire to kill, to rape, to mutilate. It has never conquered the weather. It has never conquered death. And most of all it has no knowledge of where we are all going at death. At best we can but hope to learn from it to alleviate some of the problems of the above but it being under the same curse it follows that it will never conquer what God can.

You are joking, right?
You do realise how fundamentally different the world is now due to scientific advances?

[basics]

" You do realise how fundamentally different the world is now due to scientific advances?"

Fiyenyaa,

Of course the world is advancing, science playing its part. What I wrote was that science has much yet to conquer if ever it will achieve that, before God returns to finish what is to be finished.


" Why would god deliver faith to believe in what (allegedly) historically happened, instead of just making it a logical conclusion to come to or just an accepted, proven historical fact? It is not acceptable to answer that god is testing us."

Pontifex,

It may surprise you that I have never to my knowledge used that expression. I always stress that at the fall all creation made that descent thus making everything at enmity with God. Therefore since sin was the binding factor for men and women what they believed by themselves was never quite able to bridge the gap between man and God. But if we consider the opposite, not man to God, but God to man then faith becomes the essential quality that can bridge any gap.

God is not testing anyone, this seen from Genesis onwards, men already being locked into something from which they cannot get themselves out of. In every case He has chosen certain men and women to be His, changing their natures and by faith carrying onwards the prophecy He gave at the fall. In other words all these chosen ones had revealed to them the coming of Messias and receiving faith believed it.

Yes it can be said that these persons were tested but not by God, rather the opposite of God just as Jesus Himself was tested. Of course doubts raise themselves from out of memory but faith is as solid as the Rock on which it is founded. It is hard to swim against the current, nonetheless they all did that and did it in the knowledge that other didn't have. So no, God doesn't test His own. That power lies elsewhere.

[boofhead]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

That's pretty much it. There's also this

(Matthew 9:29) 29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, "“According to your faith be it done to you.”"

And this

(I John 5:4) 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

Nobody can destroy me. Well, they can destroy my body or everything around me and reduce me to a shattered emotional husk, but they can never interfere with that link from my spirit to the Lord. It is longer lasting than carvings in stone or even the pyramids.

''If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out with tears, “I believe. Help my unbelief!”

If you want it, ask for it.

[basics]

" Could an employer of this apparent substitute to evidence and logic define and describe this, and perhaps justify its use in making decisions?
Note: I'm talking about the use of the word when it is not a simple synonym of 'trust' but a foolproof basis for decisions."

Desperado,

First and foremost faith is a gift from God to them that never had it before, that being every man and woman ever born. That it is used in the same context to deal with other things diminishes the reality of the word, replacing that with feelings that have nothing to do with its origins.

It is used in two contexts in Scripture, how we get it and how we use it. The first comes by revelation, the drawing of man and woman to the Saviour, therefore it is not blind belief at all. The second comes by once having received it, the recipient can go forward with his or her new life knowing deep within that God is not only in them but is also with them in all that they do.

Now this is a wonderful thing. Of course to the man and woman who does not have it, they can call it anything they want and do, but to a recipient it is having the power of Almighty God behind you. At any time, night or day, the receiver may communicate with Him and since He already knows your requests, He already knows what His answer will be, to your benefit although perhaps not what is expected.

That is faith in action and the faithful if wise will live by it knowing that if we can't see the future, God can. Therefore by faith, already known as real, and the faith of Jesus Christ no less, we can go forward, yes stumbling and faltering, in the belief that He will stand us back up to continue our journey.

So is it a foolproof method of doing things? To the one that has it of course it is. To the one that doesn't have it and therefore like the questioner seeks clarification by a scientific method, he or she will not get that ever. They don't have access to God. To get that one must use the keys given, not the lower strand of science. The Gospel is the power of God, note that, the power of God to save.

And when that power goes into action look out because no science in the world can come anywhere near to the hand of God when it comes to the future of men. From the beginning of our time God has been doing this work bringing many to faith and is still doing it and where is science in all that? Jesus Christ as man used His faith to go on a cross and as substitute for all the sinners He would wash with blood, it is that same faith that not only saved us but is gifted to us.

[Oddsworm]

" Could an employer of this apparent substitute to evidence and logic define and describe this, and perhaps justify its use in making decisions?
Note: I'm talking about the use of the word when it is not a simple synonym of 'trust' but a foolproof basis for decisions."

Desperado,

First and foremost faith is a gift from God to them that never had it before, that being every man and woman ever born. That it is used in the same context to deal with other things diminishes the reality of the word, replacing that with feelings that have nothing to do with its origins.

It is used in two contexts in Scripture, how we get it and how we use it. The first comes by revelation, the drawing of man and woman to the Saviour, therefore it is not blind belief at all. The second comes by once having received it, the recipient can go forward with his or her new life knowing deep within that God is not only in them but is also with them in all that they do.

Now this is a wonderful thing. Of course to the man and woman who does not have it, they can call it anything they want and do, but to a recipient it is having the power of Almighty God behind you. At any time, night or day, the receiver may communicate with Him and since He already knows your requests, He already knows what His answer will be, to your benefit although perhaps not what is expected.

That is faith in action and the faithful if wise will live by it knowing that if we can't see the future, God can. Therefore by faith, already known as real, and the faith of Jesus Christ no less, we can go forward, yes stumbling and faltering, in the belief that He will stand us back up to continue our journey.

So is it a foolproof method of doing things? To the one that has it of course it is. To the one that doesn't have it and therefore like the questioner seeks clarification by a scientific method, he or she will not get that ever. They don't have access to God. To get that one must use the keys given, not the lower strand of science. The Gospel is the power of God, note that, the power of God to save.

And when that power goes into action look out because no science in the world can come anywhere near to the hand of God when it comes to the future of men. From the beginning of our time God has been doing this work bringing many to faith and is still doing it and where is science in all that? Jesus Christ as man used His faith to go on a cross and as substitute for all the sinners He would wash with blood, it is that same faith that not only saved us but is gifted to us.

You sound great. You should become a priest. Not joking, if you were in Australia, that would get a high grade in philosophy or studies of religion HSC exams.

However, your first sentence, drew comparisons in my mind, of hope being given to the people of the world through Pandora's box (havent got a clue which Greek god put it there though). While im sure, that the both of us would agree the myth is 100% ridiculous, the same theory would also apply to 'god' giving us faith. Faith isnt given to us by god. But by evidence. We have faith in gravity because of obvious life-experiences. Faith towards god is given to people by authority figures in their childhood, because, like many religious people today, they have been raised and indoctrined in whatever faith their parents were.

On an off-topic note, Jesus going on the cross. Reminds me of watching the passion of christ (for the first and only time). Read all the raving reviews, and when it first appeared on free-to-air television, sat down with the family to watch it.......................................................................If i wanted to watch torture porn, i would've watched hostel.

[Pontifex Maximus]

basics,

Why would god deliver faith to believe in what (allegedly) historically happened, instead of just making it a logical conclusion to come to or just an accepted, proven historical fact? It is not acceptable to answer that god is testing us.

[Elfdude]

It is fundamentally pointless to discuss even the bible with the likes of basics. You cannot argue something with someone who can take a sentence of biblical text and add an essay of hidden meaning. It's simply not possible. I relish argument as much as most if not more but even I find no incentive to argue with basics. You all would be better off if you simply ignored him because he has nothing to offer (unless you want a convincing if imaginary interpretation of Christianity) and will not change his beliefs in the slightest. There aren't even any logical inconsistencies in his arguments because by virtue of the conviction in what he says the world could be wrong but he won't be.

If you want a good definition of faith that is it. Faith is the conviction to believe in something despite all evidence to the contrary. Faith is the scapegoat that allows good men to commit evil acts. Faith is the poison that corrupts. Faith is the box those who possess it place around their beings. Faith is the chain that ties you down. Faith is the prejudice to judge those around you by. Faith is the means to manipulate. Faith allows pain to exist in our society.

Faith is all these things. Faith must be tempered with evidence, and objectivity to be anything other.

[boofhead]

It is fundamentally pointless to discuss even the bible with the likes of basics. You cannot argue something with someone who can take a sentence of biblical text and add an essay of hidden meaning. It's simply not possible. I relish argument as much as most if not more but even I find no incentive to argue with basics. You all would be better off if you simply ignored him because he has nothing to offer (unless you want a convincing if imaginary interpretation of Christianity) and will not change his beliefs in the slightest. There aren't even any logical inconsistencies in his arguments because by virtue of the conviction in what he says the world could be wrong but he won't be.

If you want a good definition of faith that is it. Faith is the conviction to believe in something despite all evidence to the contrary. Faith is the scapegoat that allows good men to commit evil acts. Faith is the poison that corrupts. Faith is the box those who possess it place around their beings. Faith is the chain that ties you down. Faith is the prejudice to judge those around you by. Faith is the means to manipulate. Faith allows pain to exist in our society.

Faith is all these things. Faith must be tempered with evidence, and objectivity to be anything other.

Nice. Thanks for those words on faith, in fact nearly all of them are true

[Pontifex Maximus]

So you ignore the fact that science has rendered Genesis a collection of fairy tales?

[Helm]

I don't really understand faith, if you believe in something it should really just come naturally.

[Squiggle]

Could an employer of this apparent substitute to evidence and logic define and describe this, and perhaps justify its use in making decisions?

Note: I'm talking about the use of the word when it is not a simple synonym of 'trust' but a foolproof basis for decisions.

There is no faith necessary for God- reason and philosophy will suffice. However, for a particular religion, [I subscribe to none] faith is put in that the prophets claims are true. Most of what the religion states can be reasoned out anyway, i.e morality, God, most literal claims can become allegory's and metaphors- the faith only plays a part in substantiating the prophetic/divine claims. The real meat of religion requires no faith at all.

edit: Not explaining why or how they rationalize what faith they DO put into religions however, as I have none. I understand as little as you do. Just thought id clarify. Most people view the entirety of religion as irrational uneducated drivel, because intellectual theists generally fell out of favour- until recently. It's just wrong, the only unsubstantiated claims that fly in the face of just pure reason are prophetic ones.

[Pontifex Maximus]

In that case I would be interested to hear how you reason that a god exists.

[Squiggle]

In that case I would be interested to hear how you reason that a god exists.

Kalam Cosmological argument, argument from fine tuning, the moral argument, the maximal being argument, blah blah blah. Just learn some Philosophy...

[Fiyenyaa]

Kalam Cosmological argument, argument from fine tuning, the moral argument, the maximal being argument, blah blah blah. Just learn some Philosophy...

These are all completely awful arguments. It's not enough to say "ah, there are arguments for god" - you must actually think about them, examine them, and ask yourself if they are any good.
I cannot believe you would even bring up the 'maximal being' argument - it's so pathetic most theists are embarassed by it in my experience.