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  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Recently in the political areas there has been talk of Stalin and claims that his crimes have been exaggerated by biased western Historians.

    I'm sure this has been discussed here so if anyone can link me to previous discussions it would be helpful and I will incorporate them into my discussion here.

    The first item that I brought up was the issue of Stalin's Purges between 1936-38. A figure was broadly accepted of between 700k and 1.2 million killed though ludicrously it was dismissed as merely being a product of the time as opposed to the sheer callous disregard for human life displayed by a leader who would commit genocide to solidify power.

    The next item of disagreement is the Ukranian famine and the genocide that resulted from that. It is my opinion that although estimates vary from 2million to 10million dead a broad consensus exists around the 6-7 million mark.

    I thought I would open this up to the people who are more well versed in the history and sourcing of figures.

    On the Holodomor by way of an introduction I gleaned a small piece of news from Wikipedia.

    As of March 2008, Ukraine and nineteen other governments[22] have recognized the actions of the Soviet government as an act of genocide. The joint statement at the United Nations in 2003 has defined the famine as the result of cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the USSR[23]. On 23 October 2008 the European Parliament adopted a resolution[24] that recognized the Holodomor as a crime against humanity.[25]

    On January 12, 2010, the court of appeals in Kiev opened hearings into the "fact of genocide-famine Holodomor in Ukraine in 1932-33", in May 2009 the Security Service of Ukraine had started a criminal case "in relation to the genocide in Ukraine in 1932-33".[26] In a ruling on January 13, 2010 the court found Joseph Stalin and other Bolshevik leaders guilty of genocide against the Ukrainians; however, the court dropped criminal proceedings against the leaders, Joseph Stalin, Vyacheslav Molotov, Lazar Kaganovich, Stanislav Kosior, Pavel Postyshev and others, due to their deaths.[27] This decision became effective on January 21, 2010, after not having been contested in the Supreme Court of Ukraine for seven days.[28]

  2. #2
    Atterdag's Avatar Tro og Håb
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Oh boy, what a hornet's nest you opened here, Seneca.

    We have Russian members here who will go to such lengths in defending Stalin and his Soviet Union to call e.g. Katyn something quite common in Europe at that time.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Atterdag View Post
    Oh boy, what a hornet's nest you opened here, Seneca.
    more like a pandora's box lol

    well even after De-Stalinisation, some still refuse to acknowledge what Stalin did
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    more like a pandora's box lol

    well even after De-Stalinisation, some still refuse to acknowledge what Stalin did
    No, it's much worse than that.

    There are even some who want him canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church. A guy who couldn't even get through seminary, much less go through life without deliberately causing the deaths of millions, canonized!
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

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    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    There are even some who want him canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church.
    That would be the ultimate irony...

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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Yeah and let's not forget about Baltic Genocide! USRR sent all smart people to Siberia to work and die!

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    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    So, Denny - do you think it was genocide or not? Which isn't to say it didn't happen, but rather whether or not you think it was a deliberate attack on Ukrainians. Also, from the same wikipedia page, countries that officially recognise it as genocide:


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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    So, Denny - do you think it was genocide or not? Which isn't to say it didn't happen, but rather whether or not you think it was a deliberate attack on Ukrainians. Also, from the same wikipedia page, countries that officially recognise it as genocide:

    I think it was genocide. It perhaps wasn't as vile as the concentration camps of the Nazis, but the mismanagement of the agricultural sector, the deliberate knowledgable excessive procurement of grain during a time when people were starving (1.8m tonnes of grain) and exportation of grain and witholding of aid because it was convenient to weed out an area of resistance.

    It fits Stalins profile perfectly. He was more than willing to execute 700k and indirectly kill another 500k during the purges to solidify his position and further his aims. There can be no other explanation why so many millions starved in a time when grain harvests weren't particularly low, procurement of food was exhaustive and migration away from starving areas was banned.

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    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    DC, you are aware that since writing "Harvest of Sorrow" that Robert Conquest has revised his opinion on the matter, and now believes that it was not a genocide?

    Considering he's the most anti-Stalin historian out there, I think that's pretty significant.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    DC, you are aware that since writing "Harvest of Sorrow" that Robert Conquest has revised his opinion on the matter, and now believes that it was not a genocide?

    Considering he's the most anti-Stalin historian out there, I think that's pretty significant.
    Plenty of other historians consider his role in it pivotal and the things he did to prevent the deaths pivotal.

    Even on the retraction (just quickly glancing over it in Wiki) the considered opinion of other historians on the retraction was:

    Our view of Stalin and the famine is close to that of Robert Conquest, who would earlier have been considered the champion of the argument that Stalin had intentionally caused the famine and had acted in a genocidal manner. In 2003, Dr Conquest wrote to us explaining that he does not hold the view that "Stalin purposely incited the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put ‘Soviet interest’ other than feeding the starving first—thus consciously abetting it".

    But others disagree with Conquest in his retraction and the opinion that famine was imminent based on the harvest figures in the years preceding and after the event. They are not low enough alone to have caused such deaths.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    DC, you are aware that since writing "Harvest of Sorrow" that Robert Conquest has revised his opinion on the matter, and now believes that it was not a genocide?

    Considering he's the most anti-Stalin historian out there, I think that's pretty significant.
    Interesting. Can you provide a source for this?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    There was hunger in 1920s-30s which caused many people to die, but it was not intentional, so it was definitely not a genocide. It is also significant that most important European countries did not agree that it was an act of genocide.
    There also were purges in 1937-38. Although what Stalin did cannot be compared to what Hitler did in Europe, or western powers did to colonies as a whole, it still did a tremendous blow to Red Army and Soviet Society as a whole.
    But even if there is "revisionism" of Stalin as historical figure, it is revisionism of Western views on Stalin, which were biased from the beginning (cold war) so it is not a very bad thing after all. Here is a good example:
    Yeah and let's not forget about Baltic Genocide! USRR sent all smart people to Siberia to work and die!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Haha, the Stalin advocates are here. It's funny how they cross their little paws and whine, "Come on guys, Stalin wasn't so bad! Yes? Yes?".

  14. #14
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Nope, he just made Hitler look like a little school boy.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Holger Danske View Post
    Nope, he just made Hitler look like a little school boy.
    No he didn't. In fact, it was the other way around.

  16. #16
    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    DC; if "soviet interest" means the prevention of an economic collapse that would undoubtedly have caused many more deaths, then he's correct in that assumption. In addition to the fact that the famine occurred outside the Ukraine itself, this in my view would refute the idea of it being a genocide specifically targeting Ukrainians. Remember, by 1932, the Ukrainian nationalist kulaks had already been "dealt with", so the idea of the famine being used to crush resistance doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Not the Holodomor...


    Whilst I dislike Stalin as much as any other sane non-Russian, the Holodomor was not a genocide, nor a planned punishment of Ukrainians or whatever. The basic facts show that Stalin personally ordered aid to be distributed to the struck areas.

    Refusal to provide aid for starved

    Some sources claims that despite the pleas for assistance and acknowledged famine situation the Moscow authorities refuse to provide aid, some researchers state that aid was provided only at summer. The first reports regarding malnutrition and hunger in rural areas and towns (which were under supplied through recently introduced rationing system) to the Ukrainian GPU and Oblast authorities are dated to mid-January 1933. However, first food aid Decisions by Central Soviet authorities for Odessa and Dnepropetrovsk regions in amount of 0.4 million poods (200 thousand for each) appeared as early as February 7, 1933 [36] Measures were introduced to localize these cases using locally available resources. While the numbers of such reports increased, the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolshevik) of Ukraine issued a decree on February 8, 1933, that urged every “hunger case” to be treated without delay and with maximum mobilization of own resources of kolkhozes, raions, towns, and oblasts. The decree set a seven-day term for food aid which was to be provided from “central sources”. On February 20, 1933, the Dnipropetrovsk oblast received 1.2 million poods of food aid, Odessa – 0.8 million, Kharkiv – 0.3 million accordingly. The Kiev oblast by March 18 was allocated 6 million poods. The Ukrainian authorities also provided aid but it was limited to resources available. In order to assist orphaned children, the Ukrainian GPU and People's Commissariat of Health created a special commission; establishing a kindergartens network where children could get food, specially directed for him from Central Ukrainian and Soviet authorities. Urban areas affected by food shortage adhered to a rationing system. On March 20, 1933, Stalin signed a decree which lowered the monthly milling levy in Ukraine by 14 thousand tons, which was to be redistributed as an additional bread supply “for students, small towns and small enterprises in large cities and specially in Kiev”. However, food aid distribution was not managed effectively and was poorly redistributed by regional and local authorities.
    After the first wave of hunger in February-March, Ukrainian authorities met with a second wave of hunger and starvation in April-May – specifically in Kiev and Kharkiv oblasts. The situation was aggravated by the delayed winter.
    Between February and June 1933, thirty-five Politburo decisions and Sovnarkom decrees authorized the issue of a total of 35.19 million poods (576,400 tonnes) [37] or more than half of total aid to Soviet agriculture as a whole. 1.1 million ton were provided by Central Soviet authorities in the winter-spring 1933 - of grain for food, seeds and forage for Ukrainian SSR peasants, kolhozes and sovhozes. Such figures did not include grain and flour aid provided for the urban population, children and aid from local sources. In Russia, Stalin personally authorized distribution of aid in answer to a request by Sholokhov, whose own district was stricken.[38] However, Stalin also later reprimanded Sholokhov for failing to recognize "sabotage" within his district. This was the only instance that a specific amount of aid was given to a specific district.[38] Other appeals were not successful and many desperate pleas were cut back or rejected.[39]
    Documents from Soviet archives indicate that the aid distribution was made selectively to the most affected areas and from the spring months such assistance was the goal of the relief effort at sowing time. A special resolution of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolshevik) of Ukraine for the Kiev Oblast, from March 31, 1933, ordered peasants to be hospitalized into either ailing or recovering patients. The resolution ordered improved nutrition within the limits of available resources so that they could be sent out into the fields to sow the new crop as soon as possible.[40] The food was dispensed according to special resolutions from government bodies, and additional food was given in the field where the laborers worked.
    Last CPSU Politburo decision about food aid to whole Ukrainian SSR issued June 13, 1933, however separate orders about food aid for regions of Ukraine appeared by end of June - early July 1933– for Dnipropetrovska, Vinnitska ans Kyivska regions. For Kharkivska region’s kolkhozes assistance were provided by end of July 1933 (Politburo decision dated July 20, 1933). [41]
    [edit] Extensive export of grain and other food

    Some publications claim that after recognition of the famine situation in Ukraine during the drought and poor harvests, the Soviet government in Moscow continued to export grain rather than retain its crop to feed the people,[42] even though on a significantly lower level than in previous years. In 1930–31, there had been 5,832,000 metric tons of grains exported. In 1931–32, grain exports declined to 4,786,000 tons. In 1932–33, grain exports were just 1,607,000 tons and in 1933–34, this further declined to 1,441,000 tons.[43] Officially published data [44] slightly differ

    Whilst Soviet's actions during the Holodomor were often inhumane and not understandable, and Stalin did massacre people outside of it, the Holodomor itself was not a genocide.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Stalin was much evil then Hitler!
    He also killed a lot of more people!

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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Somehow, I think if Hitler had hated Latvians as much as he hated the jews, you wouldn't be saying that.

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    Default Re: Historical Revisionism around Stalin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    Somehow, I think if Hitler had hated Latvians as much as he hated the jews, you wouldn't be saying that.
    No I would still say that!
    Ha Ha Ha Can't accept truth?

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