Numbers as a man-made construct

[Flogger]

Its not often that I post here but I just read this fascinating article (no, it isnt an april fool's joke) and this is the best forum I know of for intelligent discussion.
The basic premise is that our perfected system of fixed integers is entirely man-made - citing examples such as Amazonian tribes that can count no futher than four, the way in which we perceive different quantities, and experiments on monkey brains. Anyways, im not very good at summing it all up, so here's the article and a few snippets: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...los-numberland

The more I pushed Pica for facts and figures, the more reluctant he was to provide them. "When I come back from Amazonia, I lose sense of time and sense of number, and perhaps sense of space." This inability to give me quantitative data was part of his culture shock. He had spent so long with people who can barely count that he had lost the ability to describe the world in terms of numbers.

It is Pica's belief that understanding quantities in terms of estimating ratios is a universal human intuition, due to the fact that ratios are much more important for survival in the wild. Historically, faced with a group of adversaries, we needed to know instantly whether there were more of them than us.

The logarithmic scale also takes account of perspective. For example, if we see a tree 100 metres away and another 100 metres behind it, the second 100 metres looks shorter. To a Munduruku, the idea that every 100 metres represents an equal distance is a distortion of how he perceives the environment. Exact numbers provide us with a linear framework that contradicts our logarithmic intuition.

Would love to see some two-sided debate regarding this!

[Poach]

It is indeed fascinating, but entirely correct. Numeric scales are an entirely human construct, and everything we define using it is merely defined within the boundary of that scale.

This is shown by changing numeric scales throughout the ages, as well as new ones coming and going. Latin numeracy in Europe was replaced with Arabic numerals as times changed, the coordinate system (numerous coordinate systems...) came into being with the rise of accurate mapping and the complex number scale came into being when we encountered forces that could not be defined using a simple real number scale.

The ability to perceive ratios and distance is, I believe, a human intuition, but not in an inherent numeric scale. Even animals, who cannot comprehend numbers, know when they're outnumbered and shouldn't start a fight. They don't know that they're outnumbered 2.5:1 or whatnot, but they know there's more of the competition than there is of them.

Similarly, distance can be perceived in guaging whether or not to jump gaps etc. They might not know that it is a 20 meter gap, but they know it's a big gap and a jump isn't advised.

As such I think your article is somewhat correct in both counts. Specific numeric scales are an entirely human invention, and we have many scales for differing uses and circumstance, but the ability to comprehend ratio and distance, though not within a rigidly defined numeric scale, still exists intuitively on a basic level.

[Mr. Crow]

that explains why i cant count past Four!

[Alkarin]

numbers and mathematics is the way we understand everything, we just put those numbers together to make coherent thoughts. This is why we believe if we are ever to come into contact with an alien species, we would only be able to communicate through mathematics.