Holocaust Denial

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Touchy subject, I know; sorry if this has been discussed before. Before I'd begin, I would like to point out that I do not support the idea of making holocaust denial an infractable offense on the TWC. Much as I think it is an abomination to history and civilized man, I cannot agree with censorship. However, I thought it'd be interesting to gauge the opinions of other citizens.

NOTE: there is a Q&A thread for non-citizens here.

Furthermore, I'm sure I'll also need to point out that by specifically mentioning the holocaust, I am not in any way discounting or trivializing the MANY other ethnicities that suffered genocide during the Second World War, or during any other period in time, for that matter. I am simply bringing up the holocaust because of a thread started a little bit ago.


Recently, a certain member exibiting trollish tendencies began a thread in which he rigorously assaulted the validity of the holocaust. Naturally, he was enveloped in a swarm of angry sentient persons. Now many people in that thread are calling for the banning of the OP.

I realized that many users live in countries in which holocaust denial is punishable by law. I'm guessing that they are in the minority, but according to wiki there are 14 countries that ban holocaust denial directly or indirectly.

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 14 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland. The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".

I'm guessing that members from those countries will be a minority, but it's worth discussing here.

It's more of a discussion than a decision for vote; I'd just like to know what other members think. I'm obviously not going to sponsor a bill that I would vote against.

[konny]

You should be aware that for Germans, and I think for the majority of Europeans, denial of holocaust is not considered to be in the same league of "punishable by the law" as smoking gras or cheating the tax. That is, denial of holocaust, or any other forms of obvious neonazism, is considered highly offensive and similar to calling for murder or verbatim supporte of abusing children.

In this sense you shouldn't be surprised that many people find it highly disturbing that this poster can open several threads of the like and this is kept going without anyone "responsible" intercepting by closing said threads and banning the poster.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

That is a good point; I don't have the strong connection to the issue that they have.

So the question is, do we take steps to accommodate some of our European members, or should we continue under USA-Based regulations? Also notice that the UK and the former Commonwealth (whose citizens amount to the second-largest demographic on the site afaik) do not have such laws either.

Anyways, I am all for making those members comfortable, and I am sickened by such mindless notions as holocaust denial.

However, I firmly believe in the principle of freedom of expression, and when you break that principle once, you devalue it as a whole. I mean, really, the purpose of freedom of expression is to protect people who hold unpopular (and even incorrect) ideas.

[konny]

Yes, I see your point. And while I support controversy discussing of history, I am aware that in this particular, and all related, case(s) it is not meant to open a discussion amongst historians/interested but serve for nothing but political propaganda.

An another problem I see, and I was just about to open a suggestion for a re-structure of VV about that when seeing your thread, is that the acutal situation in VV is that this kind of stuff is getting out of hand (see also the various nationalistic Balkan threads). This in return might turn people who seriously wish to talk about history turn away from VV.

We have alot of good historians here and also many people with questions on history due to their modding work. But these as good as never find their way into VV and prefer to ask random members by PM. I get a couple of them on German Medieval history for example. But I would never take the task, for example, to open a thread on that matter in VV because I could be aware that all those nazi and Balkan threads will instantly ban it on page three or four within two days.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

True. Ideology aside, it does cheapen the VV and lower the quality of the site. That moves me a bit closer to agreement.

[the Black Prince]

Its an opinion.

It may be wrong and inaccurate and one that should be challenged, forcefully, at every opportunity, but banning people from even saying it?

A forum is a place for debate, we debate policies, we debate issues. To ban one side of a debate defeats the point of a forum. Obviously, there are limits on freedom of expression, and rightly so, but I think this would be a step to far.

[Killerbee]

Probably because I grew up in one of the countries where Holocaust denial is forbidden by the law, but I say ban them.

Although I wouldn't say ban, but more like censor the threads.

[Nikos]

I'm in favor of forbidding all such threads on TWC. Or at the least moving them to the Alternate history or Thema Devia sections of the forum.

[M D]

Same, ban em

[Nikos]

If enough people want me too, I will create a Curial decision in the Prothalmos asking Hex to ban such threads on TWC.

[karamazovmm]

Any thread that contain any kind of discrimination, illegal behavior in any way should be closed or at least warned

[Raglan]

to be honest, and i think i might be in the minority here. I think that they should be allowed, though kept an eye on if they desolve into a slugging match. One of the most important methods of historical theory is to cross exam and never take anything as fact. These do serve their purpose in history. And even though i am a long way from agreeing with him, i don't think they should be banned

[Nikos]

to be honest, and i think i might be in the minority here. I think that they should be allowed, though kept an eye on if they desolve into a slugging match. One of the most important methods of historical theory is to cross exam and never take anything as fact. These do serve their purpose in history. And even though i am a long way from agreeing with him, i don't think they should be banned

But the thing is, there may be members on TWC who's families were personally affected by tragedies like the Holocaust. (My family(along with the rest of the village's families), for example helped to hide a Jewish family in our village in Greece, they were never found throughout the entire war)It is a slap in the face to all the survivors, and a huge disrespect to all the dead to deny such events happened. "Cross examination", as you put it, is one thing, but flat out denial is another.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

A denial of historical fact's is difficult to ascertain, but then again there are those that are raised and taught to hate as a belief system. How is one to go about policing the thought process and belief system of other individuals?

Perhaps the only path of enlightenment for some is through well spirited debate...


Edit: Thank you Brigadier. The list is thought provoking...

[Shaun]

As the Black Prince says, it's an opinion, albeit one that is extremely offensive to many, but ... it's an opinion nonetheless, which in itself causes no harm. Besides, in my experience, it's rarely long before holocaust deniers get themselves banned anyway.

[ToonTotalWar]

I am unsure on this type of subject and find this a really sensitive subject to discuss, and i must agree with Brig Graham's first paragraph above, that was a terrible time in history

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Much as it is an embarrassment to human intelligence, I have to disagree with banning holocaust denial threads. This sort of issue is kind of what the First Amendment is about. Think about it; will we really solve anything by forcing these people to keep quiet? No. Their bizarre theories and hatred will just brew on the inside. They would just form their silly little secret societies and nothing would change. At least when they come out about it we can blast them with a furious storm of common sense.

And, really, I think that their "message" needs to be known. It needs to be out in the open simply so that it can be even more widely known how incredibly stupid it is. If no one spoke about it, it would just be a matter of time before it resurfaced in force, because the holocaust wouldn't be on anyone's mind.

I dunno if I'm right on this, but in a way I think that holocaust deniers indirectly keep the holocaust alive because they make us really think about what is true and what is not. And it would be just like a skinhead to shoot himself in the foot like that.

It's a thought anyway. Free speech isn't just to enable people to express unorthodox ideas. It's also there because shoving a cork up people's mouths doesn't accomplish anything. It's superficial because it doesn't change anyone's mind, and in the end you are doing yourself a disservice by keeping away the discomfort of strange ideas.

This applies more to society than to this web site, but I think the principle is applicable.

[Guy]

I'd love to run this subject by the current British Naziational Party, Nick Griffin. He was once a Holocaust denier, claiming that the Nazis couldn't possibly take the lives of so many in the space of 3/4 years. The irony of a fascist not being able to accept his comrade's ways.

[DAVIDE]

Voted first option. If they want to sound ridiculous let them post. Nothing better than dismantlization of crap theories. Preventive censoring about those people could be counter-producing

[Guy]

Not all Skinheads were or are "supporters" of Nazism sir!
Be that as it may I understand your point and agree with your opinion on this sensitive subject!

Graham, I take my workers cap off to you: Redskin!