God is either powerless or evil!

[spanish_emperor]

So i got bored of reading so many posts saying that there is a "greater meaning when God makes us suffer" or that "there cannot be joy without sadness", etc.
The problem with these arguments is that they are arguments! Not discussions. They claim something yet they have nothing to back it up.
Why is this greater meaning that God has in mind? Why can there be no joy without suffering? Why must there be meaning in life?

I wrote down a post on microsoft word some weeks ago, maybe even months, but i never posted it down. However, here it is...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Why God did not intend to make earth as it is and how Gods inability to make Earth like he wanted shows he is non existent or evil.


We have all heard the quote from Epicurus. So i will simply leave you with my responses to some quotes.

You misunderstand a certain fundamental principle -- that harmony and peace acquire meaning in contrast to when there's no harmony or peace. Without war there would be no peace, just meaninglessness. Without chaos there would be no harmony to strive for. It is only by seeing war on your TV that you know how lucky you are here. Without concepts of misery you would be a robot, and your life would be devoid of a shred of meaning.

Life doesn't require any meaning. The meaning of life only arises because we ask ourselves the question when we are unsatisfied with our lives because we refuse to believe that humans are meant to suffer and live with so much unhappiness. If we weren't unsatisfied with our lives we would not be searching for another meaning and we would not have any reason to search for one.

What is the reason of placing opposites to everything in the world? Why if God places light must he place darkness?

but he ALLOWS his children to murder one another...often in his name!

So basically your saying that the reason God placed opposites on everything is to give humans free will because without opposites there cannot be choice (you can’t not go in the building if you are going in the building because that would be opposite).

Well let me just show you something:
If heaven is correctly depicted then everything is "perfect" and everyone is happy, etc. right? But then there cannot be opposites because otherwise unhappiness would still exist. But if there is no opposites there is no choice and if there is no choice there is no free will.
So in conclusion, in heaven there is no free will because there is no choice and there is no choice because there aren't any opposites. You would be a slave.

SO I ASK: WHAT IS THE POINT OF GOD PLACING US ON EARTH TO GIVE US FREE WILL IF HE WILL SIMPLY TAKE IT AWAY WHEN WE ARE GONE?

why not just place us in heaven instead of on earth at the very beginning? Why does he want to test us, he created us so he should know us already and should know what will happen and what we will become anyways because he is almighty remember?!

And don't say he "doesn't have power over earth, only supernatural things". If he doesn't have power over our universe then how did he create it? And what is the point of worshiping him and praying things get better in our lives if he doesn't have power? The only possible explanation is he is either evil and likes to make us suffer, not omnipotent meaning there is no point in worshipping him or he simply doesn't exist and the universe was created by the big bang or another method which doesn’t include an intelligent and omnipotent being.

[Basil II the B.S]

Let's be honest, do you expect a logic argument from a religious person about God?

[Kamonlas007]

The greater meaning is debatable in many ways, but think this what haven't we found beyond the horizon, what awaits us in this complicated future. In truth and reality there will always be suffering, but with suffering there is happiness and in life everything must have a meaning don't you think, if there was no meaning life would be boring, look at all the species in the world, there bodies work in a very different and fundamental way, which gives them the reasons to live and rejoice, we all exist for a fundamental reason don't you think

[Arch-hereticK]

The greater meaning is debatable in many ways, but think this what haven't we found beyond the horizon, what awaits us in this complicated future. In truth and reality there will always be suffering, but with suffering there is happiness

We agree.

and in life everything must have a meaning don't you think,

Life's meaning is the meaning you give it. I am unaware of any evidence that could convince me otherwise.

Life is best served with a side-order of doubt.

if there was no meaning life would be boring,

I disagree.

look at all the species in the world, there bodies work in a very different and fundamental way, which gives them the reasons to live and rejoice, we all exist for a fundamental reason don't you think

There could be a fundamental reason behind everything, but to claim that there is as a matter of fact, is a mistruth.

[Kamonlas007]

We agree.



Life's meaning is the meaning you give it. I am unaware of any evidence that could convince me otherwise.

Life is best served with a side-order of doubt.



I disagree.



There could be a fundamental reason behind everything, but to claim that there is as a matter of fact, is a mistruth.

I agree on those comments

[Arch-hereticK]

I agree on those comments

Well I disagree.

Your politeness is infuriating.

[Fiyenyaa]

The greater meaning is debatable in many ways, but think this what haven't we found beyond the horizon, what awaits us in this complicated future. In truth and reality there will always be suffering, but with suffering there is happiness and in life everything must have a meaning don't you think, if there was no meaning life would be boring, look at all the species in the world, there bodies work in a very different and fundamental way, which gives them the reasons to live and rejoice, we all exist for a fundamental reason don't you think

Perhaps if you gave your life no meaning, life would be boring, but I really don't agree that we all exist for a fundamental reason. That's just wishful thinking so far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the closest thing to a fundamental reason would be the biological imperative to procreate, but luckily we've overcome such base desires (due to our higher-functioning brains), so this is no longer the be-all and end-all of existence. Life is simply what you make of it.

[Kamonlas007]

Perhaps if you gave your life no meaning, life would be boring, but I really don't agree that we all exist for a fundamental reason. That's just wishful thinking so far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the closest thing to a fundamental reason would be the biological imperative to procreate, but luckily we've overcome such base desires (due to our higher-functioning brains), so this is no longer the be-all and end-all of existence. Life is simply what you make of it.

That's a good way to put it, but there some powers out there that we cant control

[Captain.E.Blackadder]

Let's be honest, do you expect a logic argument from a religious person about God?

I speek logic and I am a religious peson.

God made people in his image with freewill. Their is allways a choice where you can be evil or good. Moral or inmoral.

[Arch-hereticK]

God made people in his image with freewill..

Evidence?

Their is allways a choice where you can be evil or good. Moral or inmoral.

Evidence?

[Mangalore]

I speek logic and I am a religious peson.

God made people in his image with freewill. Their is allways a choice where you can be evil or good. Moral or inmoral.

So this is a case of products guarantees. God is allknowing, he made us, we are his product, he thus knew who of us would malufunction, he still did nothing => he bears full liability for all the hidious crimes mankind has commited.

We should sue his ass!

[Kamonlas007]

So this is a case of products guarantees. God is allknowing, he made us, we are his product, he thus knew who of us would malufunction, he still did nothing => he bears full liability for all the hidious crimes mankind has commited.

We should sue his ass!

How can we blame God for our actions against each other, God gave us is only begotten son to preach love and peace, even though of that we crucify him and kill him, who's fault is that, we killed his words and used the Lord's name for our ambitions, it is men that has done all the horrors of the world not God

[Arch-hereticK]

How can we blame God for our actions against each other, God gave us is only begotten son to preach love and peace, even though of that we crucify him and kill him,

I don't know about you, but I wasn't there. But if I was there with the power to stop it, I would have.

who's fault is that,

When criminal's are executed, who do we usually blame?

we killed his words and used the Lord's name for our ambitions,

You can't kill words.
Like it says in the great book (V for Vendetta) "Ideas are bullet-proof"

it is men that has done all the horrors of the world not God

What about acts of god? Floods? Volcanoes?

What about leukemia or bone-cancer in children?

What about god making these tiny little animals that can strip the flesh from the bones of an unattended baby in parts of Africa?

Why does god make psychopaths? Or people with down-syndrome? Or blind children? Or miscarriages? Or flesh eating parasites?

Compared to "God's" capricious nature, the average person seems much nicer huh.
But luckily there is no evidence that there is a god, and everything I listed are natural occurences that we will one-day overcome with mankinds' insatiable curiosity.

[iudas]

Or perhaps God does not exist? These arguments about the morality of god are always flawed, as he is inherently paradoxical. At least in the Abrahamic faiths.

[Kamonlas007]

Or perhaps God does not exist? These arguments about the morality of god are always flawed, as he is inherently paradoxical. At least in the Abrahamic faiths.

There's already a debate going about the existence of God

[basics]

" Or perhaps God does not exist? These arguments about the morality of god are always flawed, as he is inherently paradoxical. At least in the Abrahamic faiths."

judas,

The arguments are always flawed because you assume the Abrahamic faiths as you call them are of the same essence. So I repeat what I have uttered so many times before, that being that there is only one Abrahamic faith.

As Scripture says, there is one Faith, one Spirit and one Lord, one being the important word here. There aren't any others so when guys like you assume there are it is then that your logic goes astray.

[maerd2003]

since suffer, pain or joy are all simply transmission f electricity in our body(or similar stuff) then it does not mean evil in gods point of view(so is death). including god in paradoxes is also nonsense, as paradoxes appear due to our logic(and there are equivcalent paradoxes that you dont have to mention about god can always be found), which is for our place, do not work for god(god has no place and time). if you assume there is no life after death while you believe god exists then you surely get the conclusion that god is evil or tyrant or else.

[Squiggle]

The thing to back up these arguments are reason and logic, to which there are a variety of philosophical arguments as to why evil is permitted. Just go look them up yourself, because you will see nothing of value in this thread that is actually new.

[43rdFoot]

I wouldn't have the world any other way. Every day I am depressed makes bright memories seem brighter. Every day I am happy I can rejoice that I am not in my memories of sadness.




Well, maybe the world would be better without mosquitoes, but you can't win 'em all.

[Caliph]

What is the reason of placing opposites to everything in the world? Why if God places light must he place darkness?



So in conclusion, in heaven there is no free will because there is no choice and there is no choice because there aren't any opposites. You would be a slave.


why not just place us in heaven instead of on earth at the very beginning? Why does he want to test us, he created us so he should know us already and should know what will happen and what we will become anyways because he is almighty remember?!

The only possible explanation is he is either evil and likes to make us suffer, not omnipotent meaning there is no point in worshipping him or he simply doesn't exist and the universe was created by the big bang or another method which doesn’t include an intelligent and omnipotent being.

[/SPOILER]

The fact that our world is filled with a mixture of good and evil and that we have both extremes in countless instances is a perfect setting for people of all creeds to practice their free-will. The fairest way to 'test' someone's free-will is to put all his options in front of him be it good, evil, callous or whatever; don't you think?

There's another choice instead of being a heaven 'slave', like you've put it, that you failed to mention. Hell will open its doors if there was a 'slave' mutiny in heaven
Why aren't we all in heaven already? Apparently not all of us are deserving of eternal salvation. Remember there are people in our midst who do evil deeds & make others suffer without sympathy. So the reason we are being tested on Earth is because God won't condemn anyone to Hell without a strong solid case against the individual. The case being the individual's life and the choices he/she chose; thus leaving the individual no excuses or alibi. Sounds fair?

Last point, BELIEVING in God is a matter of faith. If God was present in a physical clear manner then we won't be having these debates. But to believe in God DESPITE never seeing, hearing or sensing (i.e. evidence) him in any way is a huge leap of faith; which in turn is God's ultimate test