The Myth That Germany Triggered WW2

[Jom]

Amagi, I hope you realise that your quotations of Hitler backing up his own actions don't exactly add much gravitas to your argument.

[Domen123]

Amagi stop posting this Volk und Reich Verlag propaganda photos. They are not authentic, as was already discussed on other history forums many times.

(Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)

Show me the original of this Daily Mail (which is a tabloid, by the way), instead of copying & pasting from another website everything you post here.

[roy34543]

To be honest I skimemd through a lot of the OP, because it was somewhat badly organized, But a lot of it seems to basically boil down to "The german people supported WW2 because the treaty of versailles was unfair" but pretty much anyone already knows that..
Besides, even if germany didnt start the war, they sure didnt restrain themselves once it had broken out.

[CiviC]

To be honest I skimemd through a lot of the OP, because it was somewhat badly organized, But a lot of it seems to basically boil down to "The german people supported WW2 because the treaty of versailles was unfair" but pretty much anyone already knows that..
Besides, even if germany didnt start the war, they sure didnt restrain themselves once it had broken out.

Every serial killer justifies his crimes by his childhood traumas ...

[athanaric]

The violence against germans started well before WW2, already in 1919.

Yeah, I know of the atrocious Versailles Treaty. Also, there had been rampant Nationalism on all sides for quite a while.
Still, that's no excuse for National Socialism, only an explanation of why it was so successful. The fact that you've been mistreated doesn't mean you're entitled to murder people on a large scale - moreover such people as really hadn't done Germany any wrong.

Mein Kampf was written a whole 15 years before outbreak of the war. All of Hitler´s policies when in power dismiss the "world war for lebensraum" propaganda.

It's tinfoil time...

The thing you look for is called "historical truth".

Yeah, I know that too.

Show me the original of this Daily Mail (which is a tabloid, by the way),

Also known as the Daily Heil

[Domen123]

There were 12,857 identified dead in the Bromberg area, leaving a large number of unidentified dead there, and many more dead elsewhere.

Hugo Rasmus (pre-war mayor of Bydgoszcz) speaks of 358 victims - both German and Polish.

Gunther Schubert in his book "Das Unternehmen Bromberger Bluttsontag. Tod einer Legende" - places the number of killed as 358.

Flisacka street in Bydgoszcz - German sabotage was active there too, traces of bullets can be seen until today:



The most suspicious Germans - all of them were arrested or captured with weapons in their hands - after being disarmed and interrogated were evacuated to the south, towards Inowroclaw (where they were to be imprisoned) by Polish police, on 04.09.39. Near the Jezuickie Lake this transport stopped to rest. According to the official Polish version, German saboteurs tried to massively escape and Poles had to open fire. According to the moderate German version, they were executed (and that was the purpose of stopping). Here is the name list of these prisoners - from IPN archives. 26 saboteurs were killed there. Age of each of them is given after surname and name:

http://www.ioh.pl/forum/viewtopic.ph...=asc&start=175

1. Morgenstern Johannes , 31 years old (l.)
2. Werner Kurt , 31 l.
3. Bettin Freidrich , 54 l.
4. Zimmermann Richard , 61 l.
5. Walkowiak Richard , 58 l.
6. Neumann Heinz , 19 l.
7. Reiss Hugo , 18 l.
8. Kulinna Willi , 33 l.
9. Peschel Oskar , 53 l.
10. Wichert Hermann , 36 l.
11. Klebsch Johann , 27 l.
12. Giese Freidrich , 25 l.
13. Hauffa Walter , 22 l.
14. Erdmann Wilhelm , 34 l.
15. Grabau Bruno , 50 l.
16. Goga Johann , 46 l.
17. Stangel Ernst , 55 l.
18. Riesing Heinz , 18 l.
19.Gaekel Adolf , 19 l.
20. Grone Bruno , 25 l.
21. Probul Maximilian , 35 l.
22. Retzlaff Alfred , 33 l.
23. Dering Felix , 48 l.
24. Brandt Robert , 48 l.
25. Schmidt Otto , 31 l.
26. Poppe Horst , 19 l.

As you can see once again no any women among victims.

There is also one more version - Nazi propaganda version:

According to the German account of Erwin Ditschkowski - who personally did not see that event - these Germans were "said that they can come back homes" and when they started to go away, Poles opened fire to them. According to Erwin Ditschkowski there were not 26, but "hundreds" of Germans killed there. Erwin Ditschkowski claimed that 39 of them, who survived the first "slaughter", were caught, tortured and later murdered (half by bayonets, half by bullets).

Inhabitants of Koronowska street and nearbyhood executed for sabotage in Czyzowko-Las location:

1.Alisch Gustav, 31 years old
2.Kruger Adolf, 47 years old
3.Kruger Gunther, 17 years old
4.Abend Konrad, 32 years old
5.Gutknecht Willy, 36 years old
6.Blumke August, 72 years old
7.Blumke Otto, 31 years old
8.Gehrke Gunter, 13 years old
9.Redel Erwin, 24 years old (his father, Karl, was executed for sabotage near Peterson's Mill)
10.Boldin Ernst, 76 years old
11.Kanderski Heinz, 27 years old
12.Trojahn Richard, 62 years old

Hedwiga Radler and her daugther Dorothea Radler - during the "Blutsonntag" male members of Radlers family - Arthur 42 years old, Friedrich 18 years old and Heinz 16 years old - were killed in combats against Polish soldiers as part of organized German sabotage:

http://www.ioh.pl/forum/download.php?id=43705

[Amagi]

@Jom Hitler is giving his version on why he sees the need to enter war. We have seen on various occasions by now, how the english war guarantees gave the poles a free pass to force the germans into the war. How could you force a nation to attack you? You slay her inhabitants.

And once more I quote my starting post:

The polish groupleader of the versailles delegation -Gumorvsky???- already
back then outrightly explained, that the territories granted to the nation
state of poland were
Quote:
" merely a pre-payment on a real Greater Poland".

Maybe our enthusiastic polish friend could help to clarify the name, which was hard to understand for me when transcripting the documentary.


I dont agree with many points the vids makes, but it´s interesting nonetheless.

Kind regards

Hugo Rasmus (pre-war mayor of Bydgoszcz) speaks of 358 victims - both German and Polish.
Gunther Schubert - "Das Unternehmen Bromberger Bluttsontag. Tod einer Legende" - places the number of killed as 358.

I guess thats the same sort of sources that say just some 25.000 died here when the city was overcrowded with 1.2 mio people during the bombing raid...


Germany MUST be the villain isnt it? And a villain must not have to mourn.

[Domen123]

"There was sabotage" - a letter from eyewitness of events in Bydgoszcz on 03.09.1939 and reader of "Gazeta Wyborcza", Mieczysław Finkelstein, to "Gazeta Wyborcza" from 19-08-2003:

"I am a native Bydgoszczanin. I was born in 1927. On 01.09.1939 together with my parents I lived near the Gdanska street 93. I was a student of a primary school near Świętojańska street, VI class.

Despite my old age, my memory is not failing. I don't know if that's good or bad? After reading the first statement of the interview with prof. Jastrzebski in "Gazeta Wyborcza": "Riots took place, victims of which were local Germans", I would better like to completely lost my memory. After reading this statement "Duży Format" fell out of my hand.

Prof. Jastrzebski yet several years ago in his publications reffering to the so called "Germanization" (March of 1942, so called Aufruf of gauleiter Forster) was writing such a nonsense, that if it comes to us, native Bydgoszczanie who didn't take advantage of the mercy of "eindeutschung", it took our breath away. Where is reliability and objectivness of a researcher? This was written to satisfy some German political parties. How it can be so?

And now the facts from the so called "Blutsonntag" about which I know. On that famous Sunday, it was happening so much, that a 12-years old boy had to - because of normal curiosity - accompany those events. Around 10 AM in considerable disorder Polish units were withdrawing across Bydgoszcz from the direction of Myslecinek. Together with those Polish units, some strangers - people not known to the inhabitants of our district - appeared on the streets. Those people were spreading very various information about the recent events. They were telling everybody that "we have to run away from the city" and that "Poland already lost the war".

Towards the withdrawing Polish units, from the direction of Gdanska street 76, rifle shots were fired. Polish soldiers managed to capture this German shooter. It was the owner of the upholsterer workshop, which was located in this building near Gdanska street 76 - volksdeutsch Dietrich. He was executed by soldiers in the garden at the edge of Gdanska street and Mickiewicza street (the area of modern-day cassino). This place was back then belonging to the German restaurant "Deutsches Haus", and behind this restaurant there was a German theatre, so called "Deutsche Bühne". During the entire morning of that Sunday someone was fireing towards Polish soldiers at the crossroads of Gdanska, Swietojanska and Mickiewicza streets from that garden.

Poles didn't provoke this German Dietrich to attack Polish soldiers. It was the sabotage activity of Nazism. There were much more of such Dietrichs in Bydgoszcz.

My cousin, Jerzy Prokop, today 77 years old, on 03.09.1939 was together with his mother hearing a mass in the church of św. Trójca. After the mass, around 9:30, noone from the people inside could leave the church. That was because the church was under heavy fire from 3 German factories - Kopp's tannery (św. Trójcy street), "Lukullus" plants (owner Lehmann, edge of św. Trójcy and Poznanska streets) and metallurgical plants of Eberhardt (św. Trójcy street). My cousin is still alive and is ready to testify in any moment.

If only historians of IPN would like to interview us before we die. 90 percent of witnesses of those events are no longer alive, and without them scientists of prof. Jastrzebski's sort will be able to give full rein to their imagination.

I remember discussions of my father (he was the treasurer of Chorągiew Pomorska Związku Hallerczyków) with his friends, former soldiers of gen. Haller. They considered that the Nazi provocation purposely exposed their own citizens to gain the worldwide justification of the murderous revenge on Polish citizens.

I also witnessed those murders. Germans from Bydgoszcz were very well prepared for the capture of Bydgoszcz by German soldiers. Many houses near the Gdanska, Chodkiewicza and Piotra Skargi streets on 05.09.1939 (the date of entering Wehrmacht to Bydgoszcz) were decorated with Nazi flags. I was an eyewitness of an event when the owner of a colonial shop (edge of Gdanska and Swietojanska streets) - German Lemke (who was over 70 years old then) was welcoming the entering German soldiers, waving a Nazi flag."

From the IPN bulettin No 12-1:

"Lawful situation:

The starting point of the lawful reflection is the Hague Convention from 1907, which defines the rules of conducting a ground war. According to this convention the fighting side, so the side which has the combatant rights, is also civilian population of an unoccupied territory, which spontaneously puts up resistance, to oppose the enemy invasion, and doesn't have enough time to organize itself into an army, which means: to provide equal uniforms and operate under one, uniform command. Polish civilian population of Bydgoszcz, carrying out executions on Germans or participating in them, had got status of a fighting side, which means that the victorious side couldn't punish members of a fighting side for killings commited during combat. The status of Prisoners of War belonged to all inhabitants of Bydgoszcz who went to arms on 03.09.1939 and 04.09.1939. Prisoners of War cannot be judged for killings commited on those who were considered by them as enemies, participants and members of German sabotage. It allows to say, that on 03.09.1939 and 04.09.1939 Polish population of Bydgoszcz acted in accordance with the Hague Convention about conditions of conducting ground warfare, it had got status of a fighting side and spontaneously going to arms in the face of danger caused by the approaching Wehrmacht, was entitled to identical protection as Prisoners of War.

Some Polish citizens of German nationality, including inhabitants of Bydgoszcz - reports of Polish units which were found by us in military archives confirm this - took part in sabotage operations against Poles, especially against Polish army. That's why actions of civilian inhabitants of Bydgoszcz, legitimized by the Hague Convention, were in agreement with the international law. Executions of Germans were carried out as part of the anti-sabotage actions and were carried out not because they were Germans, but because they were suspected for cooperation in sabotage actions against the Polish army. This suspicion was justified also by what had previously oozed out of Bydgoszcz to the Main Office of Reich Safety and what later enabled the Germans preparing the list of Poles designated to be executed.

Under such circumstances there are no grounds to start an investigation by the IPN prosecutor.

During our previous investigations we established, that before the German Invasion of Poland in Bydgoszcz and in the entire Pomorskie Voivodeship such conditions were created, in which organizational structures of Selbschutz could start their activity since the beginning of the invasion. Members of this organization, as they described their own tasks, were to prevent attacks on German population by Polish population and Polish military forces. But in reality since the beginning of its existence until December of 1939 Selbschutz was acting in a genocidal way, organizing commandos, which were carrying out massive executions of Poles as part of the action aiming at extermination of Polish intelligence and command classes in Pomerelia - code name "Undertaking Firtree Mountain", operation worked out in the Main Office of Reich Safety by Werner Best. We know that those name lists [of Poles determined for extermination] were prepared by doctor Emil von Augsburg, after the end of the Second World War important functionary of western German secret service - Gehlen's Institute - employed there as a specialist of Polish matters.

[...]

The turning point of the German historiography concerning the first days of WW2 in Bydgoszcz is the book of Gunther Schubert, "Das Unternehmen Bromberger Bluttsontag. Tod einer Legende" Author - educated historian - contrary to German opinions proves that an "uprising" prepared by saboteurs from the III Reich took place in Bydgoszcz."

Situational report No 4 of the chef of staff of Army "Pomorze" (Col. Dipl. Dr. Ignacy Izdebski) to the chef of Staff of the Commander in Chief (marschall Rydz-Śmigły) from the early morning (6:00 AM) on 3 September 1939:

"Sending communication officers [to Bydgoszcz ?] gives no results because of activity of numerous sabotage bands"

Communicate No 4 of the chef of staff of Army "Pomorze" from 03.09.1939, 8:30 AM:

"German organizations form sabotage bands, which in every opportunity attack our units, supply columns and destroy communications [...] On 2 IX 39 in the afternoon hours between localities Stawki and Rozanna (road Chełmno - Kosowo - Rozanna) a sabotage band destroyed around 40 cars with ammunition. In the locality Łęgnowo (east from Bydgoszcz) a band fired at transports of 13. Inf.Div., in the region of Chełmża fire fights against saboteurs during night".

Communicate No 6 from 3 September (18:00 PM) sent by Col. Izdebski to the High Command of the Polish army:

"In Bydgoszcz during combats on the bridgehead massive acts of sabotage from the German side took place [...]. Sabotage acts: apart from already reported sabotage acts in Bydgoszcz, sabotage acts against telephone and telegraph lines were reported. In Toruń a German civilian threw a hand grenade - he was killed by a passing soldier."

Report of the commander of Army „Pomorze”, Gen. Władysław Bortnowski, to the chef of Staff of the Commander in Chief, Gen. Wacław Stachiewicz about dramatic situation in Bydgoszcz:

“Constant fire of German saboteurs at our rears […] whereas lynches commited on German population by soldiers together with civilian population are not possible to come over, because police is no longer present on majority of the area. Everywhere around us fires started either by bombings or by arsons, it could be noticed that Germans have been setting houses on fire in order to signal directions of further strikes [to their military units].”

Report of the chef of staff of 15th Inf.Div., Lt. Col. Dipl. Józef Drotlew from 4 September:

“The entire division (despite sabotage actions of armed population in Bydgoszcz) withdrew in the night to the south”.

Report of the commander of the company of observation balloons Cpt. Kasprzycki from 4 September:

“On 3 September during an uprising of German saboteurs in the city of Bydgoszcz elder private Juliusz Wiśniewski from the 1st company of observation balloons was wounded in his leg. He was sent to the military hospital in Bydgoszcz on 3 September.”

Quotation from the ”Prawda o Bydgoszczy” (“Truth about Bydgoszcz”) – lecture published by Polish Ministry of Information and Documentation in December of 1939:

“During the night from 2nd to 3rd of September from the entire frontline [of Army “Pomorze”?] reports saying about participation in combats of civilian Germans, who were attacking Polish units and conducting various acts of sabotage, started to pour in. Only these reports caused the decision of the command of the front to execute saboteurs caught with arms or red-handed without trials. The frontline was 25 kilometres from Bydgoszcz. On 3 September the threat of being captured hung over Bydgoszcz. Germans from Bydgoszcz immediately started an action aiming at causing panic, which achieved temporary results. Army and police received then an order to kill saboteurs caught with arms or red-handed and to bring to field courts those Germans, participation of whom in sabotage was not fully evidenced. Intensity of fire in the entire city was very big. Saboteurs were openly fireing from windows, Polish soldiers were fighting fire with fire, capturing flats occupied by saboteurs in heavy combats. In the afternoon on 3 September 1939 officers, who were conducting regular combat against saboteurs, as well as police authorities gave reports, which were saying about killing around 160 saboteurs caught with arms. The most characteristic detail is the fact that out of these 160 killed saboteurs, only 10 were identified as inhabitants of Bydgoszcz. The others were unknown. […] Police reports were saying about capturing several MGs of German system from saboteurs, identical to these used by the German army. From the above it appears, that on 3 September firm and severe pacification of an organized, directed from outside German sabotage took place. At the same time no any acts of murdering innocent Polish citizens – Germans – took place; not even mentioning cases of killing German women and children.”

Lucy Beaker-Bill, “The agony of Poland. An English eyewitness”, 6 March 1940:

(translation of the Polish version of her account quoted by Tomasz Chincinski in his book):

“Germans from Bydgoszcz […] were thinking that German forces would reach the city almost immediately after crossing the border. They were supported by many armed men, which crossed the border during the days preceeding the invasion, especially from Danzig. There were many criminalists among them. At the beginning shots from German houses were fired and several Poles were killed or wounded. Many times when I was walking along the street, I could hear whistling bullets. There were no Polish units in the city. Polish army withdrew towards the line Torun – Poznan, leaving only sentry units and artillery, to repulse the German attacks. On 3 September these units started to withdraw through Bydgoszcz. Around midday the last group marched across the streets. Local Germans were thinking that German units were yet very close to the city, and they opened fire to the Polish army. Regular salvos could be heard from big German houses along the main street […] Several artillery missiles were directed towards the Polish Straz Obywatelska. Most of policemen were mobilized. Instead of regular army, they were entering houses, arresting people who were shooting and immediately executing them. Similar events took place in other parts of the city. German butcher and his wife were arrested with rifles and ammunition on the tower of the Jesuit church, from which they were fireing. In total around 200 armed Germans were arrested and executed, but this was not murdering innocent people. This happened later, when Germans entered the city. Fire lasted for the next two days. I could personally see a Polish supervisor, who was shot in his head, and a man from the Red Cross, who was passing away because of wound caused by a hand grenade.”

------------------------------------------------------------------

And if it comes to German documents – they confirm existence of at least few sabotage organizations in Bydgoszcz. For example documents of Breslau Abwehra confirm existence of Kampf-Organisation “Kleiss” in Bydgoszcz yet since the end of June 1939. This organization numbered some 150 members and was commanded by a man of the same surname (Kleiss). It was subordinated to the K-Organisation Posen which numbered in total 2077 saboteurs. This information is confirmed by BA-MA, OKW – Amt Ausland/Abwehr (OKW/Amt Ausl/Abw), RW 5/147 (dated 30 VI 1939). Since August of 1939 also the sabotage group (Kampf-Organisation) under command of Otto Meister existed in the nearbyhood of Bydgoszcz (it numbered 10 members). From the report of general Erwin Lahousen written on 18.09.1939 (BA-MA, RW 5/168) we know that German sabotage organizations (K-Organisationen and S-Organisationen) suffered heavy casualties in Bydgoszcz on 03.09.1939. In this document Gen. Erwin Lahousen orders officials of II Unit of Abwehra and plenipotentiaries of OKW to organize medical care for saboteurs WIA in Bydgoszcz and material help for families of those saboteurs who were KIA in Bydgoszcz on 03.09.1939. This document also mentions the OKW plenipotentiary which was organizing help for saboteurs and their families in Bydgoszcz - his surname was Girschner.

It is very probable (although not yet fully confirmed) that German sabotage in Bydgoszcz was part of a bigger sabotage operation codename “UnternehmenTannenberg”. There was an operation codename “Sonderaktion Tannenberg”, which was part of “Unternehmen Tannenberg”. According to Brigadefuhrer-SS Heinz Jost „Sonderaktion Tannenberg” caused heavy casualties to „Volksdeutsche used during this action”. According to Oberfuhrer-SS Rasch „Sonderaktion Tannenberg” was carried out mainly by the region SD Danzig (other sources – including Polish – also confirm participation of saboteurs from Gdansk in combats in Bydgoszcz on 3 IX). G. Schubert writes more about it.

Most probably also members of SS participated in sabotage in Bydgoszcz – two leaders of the German minority in Bydgoszcz, Hans Kohnert (chef of the local Deutsche Vereinigung) and Gero von Gersdorf (Kohnert’s deputy) were promoted to Oberfuhrer-SS (Kohnert) and Sturmbannfuhrer-SS (Gersdorf) soon after the Polish Campaign, on 13.11.1939. Their promotion was for “special achievements […] in combat of national groups against Poland” and was the result of recommendation by Obergruppenfuhrer-SS Werner Lorenz, chef of Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle (VOMI). German sources (BA, Personal records of Hansjochen Kubitz Sturmbannfuhrer-SS, SSO 223-A) confirm that this organization (VOMI) was directing “operations of groups of German minority in combat against nations of hostile states and by such actions it helped the Wehrmacht very much” during the WW2, both in Poland and Yugoslavia.

Also one of Polish Army officers in his accounts from 1940 (in London) said, that German saboteurs arrested in Bydgoszcz on 03.09.1939 told him during investigations, that Gersdorf was the leader of German sabotage in Bydgoszcz (source: The German Fifth Column in Poland, [London 1940], p. 83, account No 4 of Major J. Z.).

Soldiers of 116 Allgemeine SS Regiment (which was created in Bydgoszcz and was stationing there until the end of October 1939) were recruited from former members of Selbschutz Westpreussen, which formally started its activity after Wehrmacht entered Bydgoszcz (which took place on 05.09.1939). But personal records of soldiers of 6 company from this 116 SS regiment say that 03.09.1939 was the first day of service in Selbschutz of members of this company.

This is confirmed by BA, SS – Unterführer und Mannschaften Verzeichnis der Mikrofilme, SM I0014.

Also Willy Kamenz reveals some very interesting detailes and surnames connected with sabotage in the nearbyhood of Bydgoszcz (including the town of Naklo) - this is described in detail by Tomasz Chincinski in his book.

There was also another sabotage organization - Sabotage-Organisationen Gruppe 12 – subordinated to Breslau Abwehra, task of which was to “knock out” the power plant in Bydgoszcz and destroy telephone / telegraph lines between Inowroclaw and Toru. Polish reports confirm destroying telephone and telepgraph lines in this area by saboteurs. However, Polish sources do not confirm any attempts of knocking out the power plant in Bydgoszcz.

Tomasz Chincinski in his book "German sabotage in Poland [...]" writes (page 179):

"Reports of Polish units were written on 3 September and were basing on information coming from Bydgoszcz itself. This determines their reliability as historical primary sources. They were not created, as it often happened in case of later accounts, with an intention of clearing up the Bydgoszcz events, but their task was to inform military authorities about the current situation in the city. Emotions connected with tragic experiences of the German massive revenge from the Autumn of 1939 do not rest on them too. In other words, we cannot assume that Polish officers preparing reports yet on 3 September were purposely falsifying reality, knowing that they would be accused by German propaganda for the "Bromberg bloody Sunday". The legitimacy of these reports is also supported by the fact, that apart from information about German sabotage they also mention some lynches on Germans. [he refers to Bortnowski]"

Moreover - there are dozens of such reports available, all of them were written independently by various units / officers and all of them say exactly the same thing - they mention massive German sabotage in Bydgoszcz.

Most probably also members of SS participated in sabotage in Bydgoszcz – two leaders of the German minority in Bydgoszcz, Hans Kohnert (chef of the local Deutsche Vereinigung) and Gero von Gersdorf (Kohnert’s deputy) were promoted to Oberfuhrer-SS (Kohnert) and Sturmbannfuhrer-SS (Gersdorf) soon after the Polish Campaign, on 13.11.1939. Their promotion was for “special achievements […] in combat of national groups against Poland” and was the result of recommendation by Obergruppenfuhrer-SS Werner Lorenz, chef of Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle (VOMI). German sources (BA, Personal records of Hansjochen Kubitz Sturmbannfuhrer-SS, SSO 223-A) confirm that this organization (VOMI) was directing “operations of groups of German minority in combat against nations of hostile states and by such actions it helped the Wehrmacht very much” during the WW2, both in Poland and Yugoslavia.

Also one of Polish Army officers in his accounts from 1940 (in London) said, that German saboteurs arrested in Bydgoszcz on 03.09.1939 told him during investigations, that Gersdorf was the leader of German sabotage in Bydgoszcz (source: The German Fifth Column in Poland, [London 1940], p. 83, account No 4 of Major J. Z

[Hanny]

It´s sad to read such hogwash after all the energy I invested to proof otherwise.

Since thats how its taught in the western world its not hogwash but the current acepted version of history, yours is simply made up reviosonist nonsense that copntradict the textual evidence.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/...nd-poland.html

AH planed the living space and destruction of the Polish state and population, invented the pretext to invade and others were convicted post war from AH own instructions and orders.

So folks,
WHO IS THE TRUE WARMONGER HERE?


Cheers and take it easy,
Amagi

Well that was AH of course.

[Amagi]

@Hanny: Quoting a holo-promoting website (nizkor) on matters such as Hitler... talk about unbiased sources ^^

@Domen: You dont expect me to read that wall of text do you?

[Domen123]

When the polish government, on august 31st 1939 refuses to get into direct negotiations with germany, Hitler gives order to the wehrmacht, to attack poland the next morning. On September 1st, 1939, the german wehrmacht lines up for her battle against Poland.

Another incorrect information. The first planned beginning of the invasion was on August 26. But when Great Britain gave guarantees to Poland, Hitler postponed the attack (some units had already managed to cross the border and some minor clashes took place!). On August 31 Poland did not refuse any German proposition of negotiations. It was inversely - Polish ambassador in Berlin wanted to speak to the German diplomats, but he wasn't allowed to negotiate. Few hours later war started.

@Domen: You dont expect me to read that wall of text do you?

Yes I do because I've read your wall of text at the beginning of this thread, which was one of the most idiotic and nonsensical readings in my live.

Full of rubbish, lies, incorrect information and mistakes. That's how you built your story - by ommiting or deforming uncomfortable facts.

which in the beginning is just opposed [in the west] by 11 german divisions.

Another . As for 09.09.1939 Germans had got:

Along the border with Holland – 2 divisions (253 and 254)
Along the border with Belgium – 4 and 2/3 divisions (225, 251, 216 and 2/3 of 22)
Along the border with Luxemburg – 6 and 2/3 divisions (211, 69, 16, 2/3 of 227, 26, Grenz Div., 86)
Along the border with France:
a) from Mettlach do Karlsruhe – 10 divisions (33, 79, 34, 15, 52, 6, 36, 9, 71, 25)
b) behind the Rhine, from Karlsruhe to Bazilea – 3 and 1/3 (35, 5, 14 Lw, 1/3 of 78)

In reserves:

Holland – 1 (269)
Belgium – 1 (263)
Luxemburg – 1,5 (87, MG3, IR 366)
France:
a) 3 (246, 231, 714)
b) 2 (215, 2/3 78, SS "Der Führer”)

General reserve:

3 (76, 223, 209)

In transport (from this division only 75 was to be transported to Saarland) – 5:

75, 267, 58, 262, 260

As you can see this is much more than 11.

And the French Army didn't have 80 divisions fully mobilized and concentrated along the German border on 3 IX - just a dozen or so !!!

On sept 5th, 1939 the polish high command orders the rudnitzky army, beeing in action in north-west poland, to avoid contact with german troops, to destroy any aliments in their zone, and to only let desolate and destroyed country over for the advancing germans. For the first time in WW2, the principle of "scorched earth" is beeing used.

There was no any general Rudnitzky nor "the Rudnitzky army" in the Polish Armed Forces in 1939. Who the is your fictional "Rudnitzky" ??!!

The "schorched land" tactics was only practiced by the Wehrmacht in 1939 - which was burning practically every single Polish village on its way during the first days (at least 18th and 19th Infanterie Divisionen and some other units), as is described by Jochen Boehler in his book "Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg: Die Wehrmacht in Polen 1939" ("Prelude to war of annihilation: Wehrmacht in Poland in 1939").

[roy34543]

@Domen: You dont expect me to read that wall of text do you?

Why not? The OP is basically a wall of text , just worse because of the text size changes and bold sprinkled everywhere along with images scattered unevenly.

[Hanny]

@Hanny: Quoting a holo-promoting website (nizkor) on matters such as Hitler... talk about unbiased sources ^^

Hiters own words used to convict Leading nazis at Nuremburg all nicely presented to show your posts to be inacurate and contradicted by AH himself, so its not biased, but an excellent way to show your wrong.

[athanaric]

Amagi, I have no intention to read the huge texts posted here. I've been taught NS history in real time in school and elsewhere.

Just so we are clear (I'm not into denying your right to free speech, I just want to hear a concise statement. Yes or no will suffice):

- Do you deny the existence of National Socialist ideology, as written down in Hitler's books?

- Do you deny its implementation during the Third Reich's existence, which is well documented?

- More specifically, do you deny that the Shoa, the murder of approx. 6 million Jews and other people, happened?

[Hanny]

He wont deny that due to possible legal punishement, he is doing the same thing by a different method tho with hsi insane claims.

He refered to Hamburg civilans loss of life of 25k, http://www.hdot.org/ this was proven in a court of law to be the original german acounts of the loss of life, in the conviction of D Irving, he just wont acept the evidence.

[Domen123]

Come on, we simply have a Neo-Nazi revisionist on a forum - that's more than clear. Will someone finally close this thread? I am tired of posting further and further walls of text and wasting my time (but I feel huge necessity to reply to this pile of rubbish - Sorry Guys!!!).

By the way - I know other "articles" by Amagi (it is certainly him - the same style of writing and posting images - or he is copying & pasting articles of the guy I think about) from another forum - a Neo-Nazi one:

I mean Nexusboard.net. (Amagi is an author of at least several pseudo-articles on that website, but there he writes in German):

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...e-volk-f56060/

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...litik-t297647/

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...polen-t296819/

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...nntag-t296675/

"Polnische Expansionspolitik", "Volkermord an Deutschen in Polen", etc. - all Amagi's "creativity" (or copied & pasted by Amagi)... that's clear...

Close this thread!

Why not? The OP is basically a wall of text , just worse because of the text size changes and bold sprinkled everywhere along with images scattered unevenly.

Typical brain-washing tactics. It's hard to read this pile of rubbish and even harder to comment (at least 1 incorrect informations practically in each 2 words...).

That's his purpose - simply a Nazi Internet Troll. Spamming with rubbish until everyone agrees. Go back to Nexusboard.net, Mr. Schreck [-lich ]...

[Amagi]

I´ve never been to the nexusboard yet, but thx for those links above lol ^^

[Jom]

@Hanny: Quoting a holo-promoting website (nizkor) on matters such as Hitler... talk about unbiased sources ^^

Websites that are worth quoting generally do promote facts, yes.

[Razor]

He wont deny that due to possible legal punishement, he is doing the same thing by a different method tho with hsi insane claims.

Another peculiarity resulting from the war; IMO legal punishment for simply denying the Holocaust is IMO just plainly wrong. I mean it sure is weird to deny the Holocaust which seems pretty obvious but legal punishment is IMO beyond reason.

[Razor]

Come on, we simply have a Neo-Nazi revisionist on a forum - that's more than clear. Will someone finally close this thread? I am tired of posting further and further walls of text and wasting my time (but I feel huge necessity to reply to this pile of rubbish - Sorry Guys!!!).

By the way - I know other "articles" by Amagi (it is certainly him - the same style of writing and posting images - or he is copying & pasting articles of the guy I think about) from another forum - a Neo-Nazi one:

I mean Nexusboard.net. (Amagi is an author of at least several pseudo-articles on that website, but there he writes in German):

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...e-volk-f56060/

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...litik-t297647/

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...polen-t296819/

http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/63...nntag-t296675/

"Polnische Expansionspolitik", "Volkermord an Deutschen in Polen", etc. - all Amagi's "creativity" (or copied & pasted by Amagi)... that's clear...

Close this thread!

So what? Let him be...