Do Christian values equal biblical values?

[Old_Scratch]

Many people in the western world will identify a number of good acts, such as being charitable and loving to your neighbors, as Christian values. In fact, almost every time someone says "Christian values" they mean only these good aspects. Now anyone who's read the bible knows that there are a lot of "values" ordered by god that would be considered criminal in this day and age. Christianity is supposed to be based on the bible, yet they only pick the few good biblical values and call them Christian values while ignoring all the other craziness.

So, is this a distorted and incorrect point of view since they are completely ignoring most of the book that their religion is based on, or is there actual separation between biblical values and what we call Christian values today? Can one have "Christian values" while not having biblical values?

[Elfdude]

You can find moral justification for just about any type or morality in the bible. While you might pick and choose charity and loving thy neighbor, someone else might choose stoning their children or even kill their children before they become responsible for their own actions. If you can support any moral position with the bible the bible objectively supports no position. If it supports no singular position then there is not morality to be found in the bible.

This seems to be supported by the fact atheists are no more immoral than their christian counter-parts, in fact many published sources would lead you to the conclusion atheists are more moral.

Good job on picking and choosing your arguments though, you're on the starting point to atheism. I suspect when you realize by calling yourself a christian you legitimize those people who interpret it like I did above (when in any other institution they'd be considered insane and get no support for their horrible beliefs) you might have more troubles with your faith. You don't have to be a christian to be a good man and if god is as good as they say he is I'd imagine he'd prefer you were good to being dogmatic.

[Old_Scratch]

You can find moral justification for just about any type or morality in the bible. While you might pick and choose charity and loving thy neighbor, someone else might choose stoning their children or even kill their children before they become responsible for their own actions. If you can support any moral position with the bible the bible objectively supports no position. If it supports no singular position then there is not morality to be found in the bible.

This seems to be supported by the fact atheists are no more immoral than their christian counter-parts, in fact many published sources would lead you to the conclusion atheists are more moral.

Good job on picking and choosing your arguments though, you're on the starting point to atheism. I suspect when you realize by calling yourself a christian you legitimize those people who interpret it like I did above (when in any other institution they'd be considered insane and get no support for their horrible beliefs) you might have more troubles with your faith. You don't have to be a christian to be a good man and if god is as good as they say he is I'd imagine he'd prefer you were good to being dogmatic.

You misunderstand me, I'm already an atheist. I'm just asking that in our society today, can the term "Christian values" be separated from biblical values? Are Christian values actually different from the values of the book that the religion is supposedly based on?

[Elfdude]

Oops, you kind of came off as a christian there. Although I should've known you weren't, my bad.

But to be totally objective they're no longer Christians, nor are they guaranteed a place in heaven in the very religion they worship if they pick and choose their values. Like I said questioning the values of the organization is the first step to becoming an atheist, as soon as you realize it's ridiculous to believe in stoning your daughter you progress to it being ridiculous to think god had a hand in the bible then you start to think it is ridiculous to be a christian, then you start to think it's ridiculous to claim christianity when you don't even think a god worthy of worship could possibly have a hand in it, then you admit the question is unanswerable become an agnostic atheist and develop a real morality.

[Scorch]

Well Christian values have to be separated from Biblical values. It is this infinite regression and discarding of the barbaric parts of the Bible as a secular discourse of morality emerges to override such idiocy that has allowed Christianity to survive to this day.

[Tacitursa]

Most christian values come from society and culture not the bible. But then thats where all morals and values come from.

Religion just likes to claim them as there own and everything else for that matter, like evolution first it was nonsense and herecy and now it was god's doing.

Give it a few more years and the bible will not be against homosexuality. They were just interpretating it wrong... what jesus really meant was.... Or they will just snip that bit out like the other bits they dont agree with or shall i say society doesnt agree with.

[Old_Scratch]

Well I ask because I've heard many people who aren't religious claim to still have Christian values. Clearly they aren't talking about biblical values so it seems to me that whatever the origin of their moral code, they are associating these good morals with Christianity. So if a large portion of Christians and non-Christians alike believe that being charitable and all that are Christian values, does that make it true even if biblically it's not entirely correct?

In a recent discussion with a non-religious person he argued just this. He had Christian values but not biblical values, and he believed that it was just a term used today to describe what basically amounts the western moral code. It's a misnomer, but it seems to be what many people believe.

[Elfdude]

Well I ask because I've heard many people who aren't religious claim to still have Christian values. Clearly they aren't talking about biblical values so it seems to me that whatever the origin of their moral code, they are associating these good morals with Christianity. So if a large portion of Christians and non-Christians alike believe that being charitable and all that are Christian values, does that make it true even if biblically it's not entirely correct?

Appeal to consensus is a logical fallacy. So not it does not mean they're correct, they're simply misinformed.

[gambit]

You misunderstand thinking every single act of God is God's way of saying "this is okay to do". It was 'necessary' for god to flood the earth, and rain fire and brimstone on sodom and gomorra, and necessary for him to sacrifice jesus, and so on.

While (if I believed it) I definitely wouldnt agree it was necessary, I agree with the rationale. Biblical/Christian values are about the message, not the details.

[Monarchist]

I pick and choose from the Bible, just as I do in life. It is a stupid folly to assume that all of life's answers are in that book, and that all answers within it are infallible. That is a flatly contradictory statement, seeing how the stoning of sinners appears in juxtaposition with loving all of them. Of course, punishment may be executed on a man out of love for him, but not that sort of punishment. Either way, it is obvious to all men but the most brainwashed that the Bible cannot be the sole guide. It is mere experience which gives us wisdom, not disembodied words.

[Old_Scratch]

I pick and choose from the Bible, just as I do in life. It is a stupid folly to assume that all of life's answers are in that book, and that all answers within it are infallible. That is a flatly contradictory statement, seeing how the stoning of sinners appears in juxtaposition with loving all of them. Of course, punishment may be executed on a man out of love for him, but not that sort of punishment. Either way, it is obvious to all men but the most brainwashed that the Bible cannot be the sole guide. It is mere experience which gives us wisdom, not disembodied words.

So then, following this line of thought that Christian values are not completely synonymous with biblical values, can one effectively argue against the idea of Christian values using the bible as a reference? I used to, but I don't think that it's a sound argument since obviously most Christians don't follow all the OT craziness. The idea of Christian values seems to be a term that is mostly detached from the bible and is more synonymous with western values than anything else. Christian values do not equal biblical values and therefor one shouldn't bring the bible into a discussion concerning Christian values, in my opinion.

[Chlodwig I.]

To answer the Question

No.

Most (All) Christian Values are in the Bible
but not everything from the Bible is a Christian Value

[basics]

" Now anyone who's read the bible knows that there are a lot of "values" ordered by god that would be considered criminal in this day and age."

Old_Scratch,

And what might they be?

[Arch-hereticK]

It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.


And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB) There are many more quotes on this topic at my "Do Not Ignore the Old Testament" web page.

I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.
http://www.evilbible.com/

[PhilipO'Hayda]

[QUOTE=Arch-hereticK;7047219]


This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.
/QUOTE]
really! thats a big jump!, must peolpe are just going to reacted like you?

[Arch-hereticK]

really! thats a big jump!, must peolpe are just going to reacted like you?

Only the ones as smart as me.

But seriously, I didn't write that, I just copied and pasted it cause I don't have an opinion of my own.

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Only the ones as smart as me.

But seriously, I didn't write that, I just copied and pasted it cause I don't have an opinion of my own.

Don't say you copyed it from Richard Dawkins.

[Visna]

" Now anyone who's read the bible knows that there are a lot of "values" ordered by god that would be considered criminal in this day and age."

Old_Scratch,

And what might they be?

God telling the Isrealites to commit genocide on the Canaanite people, down to the last fetus, perhaps? Sometimes God would do the dirty work himself, Sodoma and Gomorra, first borns of Egypt, the great Flood etc.
And let's not even get started on Armageddon, the death toll from that event will be in the billions if it were to happen today.

There are two possible interpretations. Either those stories are religious myths, stories of some spiritual significance, but the actual events described never happened as described, if something similar even happened at all in the first place. Or that the Bible is true down to the last word. And in that case, it should be fairly obvious which parts of the Bible could come into conflict with present day morals. Genocide being a practice that's generally frowned upon and all that.

[basics]

" And in that case, it should be fairly obvious which parts of the Bible could come into conflict with present day morals. Genocide being a practice that's generally frowned upon and all that."

Visna,

That present day morals differ from the past owing to the work of God at Calvary is perhaps the reason for the last part of the above statement. The reason men died is because from the beginning they belonged to the enemy of God making themselves enemies in the things that they did. All the Scripture in the world won't change that, nor will calling God names that are unworthy of Him because He delivers justice to His enemies.

Yet it is seen that even with His intervention on this planet that has not been enough to turn men away from the condemnation they are under or the future that awaits them for the evil that they do. It's all very well for Arch-hereticK to produce the end product yet he never tells why, the reason, these peoples paid such a price. Jesus Christ gave us all a way out, it is called the Gospel. And yes, that Gospel tells of what can happen if we reject the Saviour.

If we see the Old Testament Israelites as a type and shadow of the church then what we determine is what the church goes through as a result of the unbelieving peoples around it. Now us in the West are quite comfortable in knowing that these things are not happening on our doorstep, but look across the world and view that they are happening there, and would happen here if we were not vigilant.

Only recently we had one million Tutsis killed in a matter of hours by Hutus in Rwanda, instigated by men of evil and cooperated by the Roman Catholic church in that country. Meanwhile we see Muslims kill Catholics wherever the two are found all over that continent and yet they claim the same God, even claim the same rule over the world but you would be hard pressed to blame God for that. And who can doubt that both would love to see the back of Israel.

We all die. How we die is immaterial because the Law of God has demanded death because men never accepted His word and even though He came to alter our condition, men find it easier to do the things they do if they persuade themselves either there is no God or make one up in their vile imaginations. The things that were done in the Old Testament were done so that the type for the church could survive, them being the Israelites.

What we see now is two churches, one that is false yet practises them of old and the real thing which follows the word of God. So in the latter we find no need to be the practioners as Israel was, but the harbingers of what God originally intended men should be. Men will still die but not anymore at the hands of the type for it is written that vengeance is mine saith the Lord and so it is. The Law will still attend to that, our's is to pray for as many as possible that it may not be them.

[boofhead]

Many people in the western world will identify a number of good acts, such as being charitable and loving to your neighbors, as Christian values. In fact, almost every time someone says "Christian values" they mean only these good aspects. Now anyone who's read the bible knows that there are a lot of "values" ordered by god that would be considered criminal in this day and age. Christianity is supposed to be based on the bible, yet they only pick the few good biblical values and call them Christian values while ignoring all the other craziness.

So, is this a distorted and incorrect point of view since they are completely ignoring most of the book that their religion is based on, or is there actual separation between biblical values and what we call Christian values today? Can one have "Christian values" while not having biblical values?

Your idea is wrong from start to finish. I feel I've repeated myself until I'm blue in the face on this forum, but whatever. A Christian is a follower of Christ, i.e. Jesus. Whatever Old Testament Jewish shite you want to finger is just some historical, outdated and finished thing.

Tell me what value Jesus espoused that is ''crazy'', or ''criminal''. Name one. Give me chapter and give me verse.