The German Iron Cross

[Razor]

In 2008 Germany (finally) has re-instituted military decorations for bravery. However these military decorations are completely new being called 'Honorary Cross of the Bundeswehr for Bravery' or 'Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr für Tapferkeit' instead of being a continuation of the tradition of the old 'Iron Cross' or 'Eisernes Kreuz' having a history dating back to the Napoleonic Wars.

The main reason is that the Iron Cross has been tainted because it's been awarded to German soldiers in WWII. My question is, should the Iron Cross, being part of German history and tradition be re-instated and finally be cleansed of its Nazi past or should it not?

IMO it should be re-instated like it was. Like I said above it would be a continuation of a tradition and history, and would have a much greater value than the newly created Cross of Honor for Bravery.
Why would the fact that the Nazis used the decorations as well be a reason to abruptly end the life of the Iron Cross as a military award? Plus I like the design a lot more. It's such a typical symbol for Germany. They have the Iron Cross as their emblem for the Bundeswehr. They have it on their vehicles and on their ships. Then why not as military decoration then?
Plus re-instating the Iron Cross would be the ultimate possibility to clean one of the most German symbols from its unreasonably dominant Nazi past (without the swastika there's actually not much Nazi about it at all).

Ideas? Opinions?

[Sher Khan]

Eh, are Germans still driving around in Mercedes-Benz cars?

Then their soldiers should get swank awards.

[motiv-8]

That's like saying Volkswagen should be shut down for being started by a Nazi trade union. Historical hypersensitivity is just as detrimental in some cases as forgetting it entirely.

[Hanny]

Anti Nazi laws outlaw the wearing of the iron cross, as is the german cross in gold, so there isa legal reason why the new awards are diffwerent.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

I find those anti-Nazi laws silly. Take the swastika for example. A perfectly good symbol that's been in use for millennia, and then one crazy Austrian guy makes it the symbol of his party for a couple of decades and suddenly it's taboo in Germany for all time...

[Rapax]

I find those anti-Nazi laws silly. Take the swastika for example. A perfectly good symbol that's been in use for millennia, and then one crazy Austrian guy makes it the symbol of his party for a couple of decades and suddenly it's taboo in Germany for all time...

Oh yeah because god knows nothing bad happened under the swastika during that time.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

Oh yeah because god knows nothing bad happened under the swastika during that time.

Was it the symbol's fault? If a new fascist party came to power in some powerful nation with, say, the cross or crescent as its symbol and then caused a world war, should we ban the use of that symbol in perpetuity as well? It just seems culturally shortsighted to me.

But I see the Iron Cross isn't about that, since it's a special kind of medal that wouldn't be likely to be handed out again in the foreseeable future.

[Rapax]

Was it the symbol's fault? If a new fascist party came to power in some powerful nation with, say, the cross or crescent as its symbol and then caused a world war, should we ban the use of that symbol in perpetuity as well? It just seems culturally shortsighted to me.

No, the Nazis didn't "just" cause a world war. A large number of heinous crimes against humanity have been committed under the swastika, forever tainting and associating said symbol with those crimes, especially in Germany. I think it's great if you can look at a swastika and not immediately think of Nazis but frankly most people can't and allowing German neo nazi groups to openly carry and use it for their marches and propaganda would be a slap in the face for any survivor and everyone who helped build up Germany again as a democratic nation. Not like it's any of your concern whether it's forbidden in Germany, now is it.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

No, the Nazis didn't "just" cause a world war. A large number of heinous crimes against humanity have been committed under the swastika, forever tainting and associating said symbol with those crimes, especially in Germany. I think it's great if you can look at a swastika and not immediately think of Nazis but frankly most people can't and allowing German neo nazi groups to openly carry and use it for their marches and propaganda would be a slap in the face for any survivor and everyone who helped build up Germany again as a democratic nation. Not like it's any of your concern whether it's forbidden in Germany, now is it.

I should have added "genocide" next to "world war", but in this argument's context I thought it'd be implied. I agree that it would be distasteful to the extreme to see neo-nazis marching around with swastikas, but personally I find neo-nazis distasteful in general, no matter what symbol they choose to use. I don't live in Germany, but I do visit there from time to time, and since we're such a connected world I'm curious to know how far such restrictions apply. For instance, the Finnish air force still uses a swastika as its emblem on flags. Would these flags be illegal in Germany? Does the TWC poster who uses a Finnish Air Force swastika as his profile picture offend German sensibilities? What about swastikas in ancient (or really just pre-1920s) art?

[FliegerAD]

It is a common misconception that the Iron Cross was a generic Prussian/German medal for bravery throughout history.
It has never been and hopefully will never be a permanent medal. The Prussian/German military history had other permanent medals, which are awarded for bravery.

The Iron Cross was a special medal founded and it is awarding authorized on occasion in an especially hard conflict that threatens the very existence of the whole German fatherland. The original foundation text from 1813 is quite clear here:

In der jetzigen großen Katastrophe, von welcher für das Vaterland Alles abhängt, verdient der kräftige Sinn, der die Nation so hoch erhebt, durch ganz eigenthümliche Monumente geehrt und verewigt zu werden. Daß die Standhaftigkeit, mit welcher das Volk die unwiderstehlichen Übel einer eisernen Zeit ertrug, nicht zur Kleinmüthigkeit herabsank, bewährt der hohe Muth, welcher jetzt jede Brust belebt und welcher, nur auf Religion und auf treue Anhänglichkeit an König und Vaterland sich stützend, ausharren konnte.
Wir haben daher beschlossen, das Verdienst welches in dem jetzt ausbrechenden Kriege, entweder im wirklichen Kampf mit dem Feinde oder außerdem im Felde oder daheim jedoch in Beziehung auf diesen großen Kampf um Freiheit und Selbständigkeit, erworben wird, besonders auszuzeichnen und diese eigenthümliche Auszeichnung nach d i e s e m Kriege nicht weiter zu verleihen.

Despite the last paragraph it has been re-founded on three occasions: The Franco-Prussian War of 1870, World War I and World War II. The award was given for bravery in a struggle for all of Germany (as opposed to the various states) before 1871, and then for the struggle against Germany’s doom. Note the award was not authorized in 1848, 1866, the China expedition or other combat operations in the colonies before 1914. It was also not authorized during the fighting with Communist, Nazi, or Polish ‘insurgents’ in the Weimar era.

As the fatherland is united and not threatened in its existence there is little reason to re-found it.

Anti Nazi laws outlaw the wearing of the iron cross, as is the german cross in gold, so there isa legal reason why the new awards are diffwerent.

Correction: the display of Swastikas is forbidden, so Iron Crosses from 1813, 1870/71, and 1914-1918 can be displayed, as well as denazificated (is that a word?) Iron Crosses from WWII.
Actually the honor-guard of the Bundeswehr was explicitly ordered full medals during Chancellor Adenauer’s funeral, including all WWII medals with Swastika removed.



The political affairs are wholly different thing again. As it stems from 1813, the birth of our nation so to say, it has an untainted tradition, even some democratic tones in it. World war II naturally has stained its reputation; World War I did so to a lesser degree.
The Iron Cross itself can hardly be problematic, as it has served for more than 50 years as symbol of an army defending democracy and freedom, and will continue to serve as such. People opposing the Iron Cross as medal are usually the ones who would abolish the Bundeswehr altogether. Unfortunately they have mighty voices with the usually leftist media.
However if you want to discuss politics, this is the wrong place. Historically the case is rather clear.

[Razor]

It is a common misconception that the Iron Cross was a generic Prussian/German medal for bravery throughout history.
It has never been and hopefully will never be a permanent medal. The Prussian/German military history had other permanent medals, which are awarded for bravery.

The Iron Cross was a special medal founded and it is awarding authorized on occasion in an especially hard conflict that threatens the very existence of the whole German fatherland. The original foundation text from 1813 is quite clear here:

In der jetzigen großen Katastrophe, von welcher für das Vaterland Alles abhängt, verdient der kräftige Sinn, der die Nation so hoch erhebt, durch ganz eigenthümliche Monumente geehrt und verewigt zu werden. Daß die Standhaftigkeit, mit welcher das Volk die unwiderstehlichen Übel einer eisernen Zeit ertrug, nicht zur Kleinmüthigkeit herabsank, bewährt der hohe Muth, welcher jetzt jede Brust belebt und welcher, nur auf Religion und auf treue Anhänglichkeit an König und Vaterland sich stützend, ausharren konnte.
Wir haben daher beschlossen, das Verdienst welches in dem jetzt ausbrechenden Kriege, entweder im wirklichen Kampf mit dem Feinde oder außerdem im Felde oder daheim jedoch in Beziehung auf diesen großen Kampf um Freiheit und Selbständigkeit, erworben wird, besonders auszuzeichnen und diese eigenthümliche Auszeichnung nach d i e s e m Kriege nicht weiter zu verleihen.

Despite the last paragraph it has been re-founded on three occasions: The Franco-Prussian War of 1870, World War I and World War II. The award was given for bravery in a struggle for all of Germany (as opposed to the various states) before 1871, and then for the struggle against Germany’s doom. Note the award was not authorized in 1848, 1866, the China expedition or other combat operations in the colonies before 1914. It was also not authorized during the fighting with Communist, Nazi, or Polish ‘insurgents’ in the Weimar era.

As the fatherland is united and not threatened in its existence there is little reason to re-found it.




Correction: the display of Swastikas is forbidden, so Iron Crosses from 1813, 1870/71, and 1914-1918 can be displayed, as well as denazificated (is that a word?) Iron Crosses from WWII.
Actually the honor-guard of the Bundeswehr was explicitly ordered full medals during Chancellor Adenauer’s funeral, including all WWII medals with Swastika removed.



The political affairs are wholly different thing again. As it stems from 1813, the birth of our nation so to say, it has an untainted tradition, even some democratic tones in it. World war II naturally has stained its reputation; World War I did so to a lesser degree.
The Iron Cross itself can hardly be problematic, as it has served for more than 50 years as symbol of an army defending democracy and freedom, and will continue to serve as such. People opposing the Iron Cross as medal are usually the ones who would abolish the Bundeswehr altogether. Unfortunately they have mighty voices with the usually leftist media.
However if you want to discuss politics, this is the wrong place. Historically the case is rather clear.

I was aware of the fact that it has never been a permanent medal. However with the creation of the new military decorations I get the impression that it's more of a replacement of the Iron Cross, because the discussions about re-instating the Iron Cross are more about the Nazi past and not so much about the fact that Germany isn't in danger and therefore no Iron Crosses should be awarded.
I sense that with this new medal they are avoiding the issue of the Iron Cross and the Nazi past and are therefore not solving the problem.

[Hanny]

Correction: the display of Swastikas is forbidden, so Iron Crosses from 1813, 1870/71, and 1914-1918 can be displayed, as well as denazificated (is that a word?) Iron Crosses from WWII.
Actually the honor-guard of the Bundeswehr was explicitly ordered full medals during Chancellor Adenauer’s funeral, including all WWII medals with Swastika removed.

Thanks for the cliarfication all i recalled was that in 57 Iron cross were banned in public, iirc they banned ones contain swastika in the middle, is that the cause of the banning?, as the regime associated itself with its owm image onto existing war merit medals.

Denazification isa word, its what the western allies did to 00s of 000s former party members post war to re educte them into thinking along more democratic mind sets. 250k still to do when the process was stopped.

[Poach]

It's high time the Germans moved on from WW2, the rest of us have.

[Dr. Croccer]

They should just re-institute it really. I don't see the issue. If they can paint big Iron Crosses on their military vehicles then I see no problem with having it as a medal.

[FliegerAD]

I sense that with this new medal they are avoiding the issue of the Iron Cross and the Nazi past and are therefore not solving the problem.

I agree entirely. And while you are aware of the special requirements of the IC, many people are not. And this is the reason why it is discussed in the first place.
People think it is a generic Germany medal for bravery, and when the ratio of combat operations rose some years ago they wanted a Bundeswehr medal for bravery (rightly so!) and thought of the Iron Cross. Also believing it was a generic Germany medal for bravery, Moralists jumped in and there it is: your discussion. But again, this is a political discussion, not a historical one, even if the media liked to pretend so.

I don’t share the political reservations against the Iron Cross itself, but historically the requirements for the authorization of the Iron Cross are laid out, and I don’t think they are fulfilled right now, so I agree with the introduction of another level of an existing medal. Of course this introduction was about time!
It also gives the IC a special meaning if not everything is awarded with it. As it should be.

is that the cause of the banning?

Pretty much. Also in this time people did not really want to be remembered what had happened. You know, many Germans could have worn their decorations (with Swastika removed of course), they just did not want it. Günther Rall, who was in the honor guard for Adenauer’s funeral felt uncomfortable with the order to wear the old medals again. I have not been able to find one post-WWII picture with German soldiers wearing them, except this funeral. They made a 180 degree turn, almost nothing on their uniforms:

http://www.austrianwings.info/grafik...bundeswehr.jpg
http://www.der-deutsche-jagdflieger....Hartmann_6.jpg

[antaeus]

if the german government are not proud of the associated history of something that it's their prerogative to award, then they shouldn't have to award an old award. there's nothing wrong with instituting a completely new awards system... my country just did it and we dont have a nazi past. modern germany and pre ww2 germany are two completely different institutional bodies... with different territory and a different world view - the new awards reflect the heritage of modern germany, not that of 19th century prussia. i really dont see the issue.

the volkswagon and mercedes comparisons are irrelevant as they're private companies.

[konny]

In German military traditions the Iron Cross, as a symbol, is not associated with the Wehrmacht (only). It still today serves as the official symbol of the German armed forces (Bundeswehr):





Like Flieger AD said, the IC as a personal medal historically required to be in an official state of war (at least), which is not the case nowadays.

Otherwise I can not see that the Federal Government would not continue to use traditional German orders; for obvious reasons, renamed, and somtimes slightly redesigned:


Pour le Mérit (old)


Bundesvedienstkreuz (new)




Militärverdienstkreuz (old)


Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr (new)

[Tiberios]

They should seriously reinstate the Iron Cross. It shouldn't be removed just because of the nazis and WW2.

[Mangalore]

It's fun how people complain about Germans being so Nazineurotic and keep dragging that out on all issues.

The main issue about the Iron cross is - as already mentioned - more complex. First, it wouldn't apply to the current situation anyway and there were no other medals in existance until that point to award soldiers who had been in the thick of it during current peacekeeping missions or similar. Such medals were not necessary because since her creation the Bundeswehr did not participate in any conflicts or wars for more than 60 years. It waited for a war that luckily never happened and which would have made the proposition of medals pretty silly because in most scenarios germany would have been wasted in the process.

In the political context it is however more noteworthy that the Iron cross doesn't represent the federal republic of germany very well which sees herself disassociated not only from the Nazis but also from the German empire pre1918 and Prussia pre 1870. Its colors are black, white and red which is not the colors of Germany which are (older than Prussia's empire) black, red and gold. The black cross as sign of the Teutonic knights equaly has a more general meaning than the Iron cross and was used in an overall larger area of germany in association or hommage to that military order.

It makes sense not to reintroduce the old Iron cross because it is a Prussian medal and the federal republic of germany doesn't see itself as successor to prussia but as the democratic continuation of the German Reich as an ancestral nation and more importantly the Frankfurt parliament which first used the old German colors in a tricolore.

Overall the intentional break is partially with Prussia as well and more importantly with the fact that the colors black white and red are all associated with authocratic regimes(or democratic failure), not germany in its historic sense or with democratic revolution.

So the driving forces in symbolism are:
- not to be associated with the Nazi times
- only mildly associated with Prussia, but not with its monarchy
- embracing the first German democratic revolution of 1848
- honoring the traditional symbolism of the German empire pre 1806 as a state incorporating the German people as the nation.
- making something entirely new as the new democratic germany that left the above baggage behind and doesn't feel obligated to any of it.

The Nazi cards is just an easy win but the last three points are imo the main arguments not to reintroduce any medals between 1813-1945 in their traditional role because that's not the symbolism the Federal republic of Germany aims for and wants to identify with.

[thursgun]

I find those anti-Nazi laws silly. Take the swastika for example. A perfectly good symbol that's been in use for millennia, and then one crazy Austrian guy makes it the symbol of his party for a couple of decades and suddenly it's taboo in Germany for all time...

Right.... because when I see a swastika the first thing that comes to my head is a reference to Hinduism....

And you say "a couple of decades" like if it wasn't a big deal. Let me remind you that those decades held the biggest genocide in human history. And today (not 5,000 years ago) that symbol means that to most western culture.

It's fun how people complain about Germans being so Nazineurotic and keep dragging that out on all issues.

The main issue about the Iron cross is - as already mentioned - more complex. First, it wouldn't apply to the current situation anyway and there were no other medals in existance until that point to award soldiers who had been in the thick of it during current peacekeeping missions or similar. Such medals were not necessary because since her creation the Bundeswehr did not participate in any conflicts or wars for more than 60 years. It waited for a war that luckily never happened and which would have made the proposition of medals pretty silly because in most scenarios germany would have been wasted in the process.

In the political context it is however more noteworthy that the Iron cross doesn't represent the federal republic of germany very well which sees herself disassociated not only from the Nazis but also from the German empire pre1918 and Prussia pre 1870. Its colors are black, white and red which is not the colors of Germany which are (older than Prussia's empire) black, red and gold. The black cross as sign of the Teutonic knights equaly has a more general meaning than the Iron cross and was used in an overall larger area of germany in association or hommage to that military order.

It makes sense not to reintroduce the old Iron cross because it is a Prussian medal and the federal republic of germany doesn't see itself as successor to prussia but as the democratic continuation of the German Reich as an ancestral nation and more importantly the Frankfurt parliament which first used the old German colors in a tricolore.

Overall the intentional break is partially with Prussia as well and more importantly with the fact that the colors black white and red are all associated with authocratic regimes(or democratic failure), not germany in its historic sense or with democratic revolution.

So the driving forces in symbolism are:
- not to be associated with the Nazi times
- only mildly associated with Prussia, but not with its monarchy
- embracing the first German democratic revolution of 1848
- honoring the traditional symbolism of the German empire pre 1806 as a state incorporating the German people as the nation.
- making something entirely new as the new democratic germany that left the above baggage behind and doesn't feel obligated to any of it.

The Nazi cards is just an easy win but the last three points are imo the main arguments not to reintroduce any medals between 1813-1945 in their traditional role because that's not the symbolism the Federal republic of Germany aims for and wants to identify with.

I agree. Symbols are not just objects that should be used solely because of traditions. Symbols are objects that are supposed to mean something be it Nazism or Monarchy.