how effective were pilums against cavalry

[Space Wolves]

Pretty self-explanatory, i kind of dropped the ball with this one, and its made worse seeing i can't find my history books to find out this answer



I know the pilum was quite bendable when it hit on impact, but how effective were they against cavalry.


Say a french Knight in full armour? lol

[Gromovnik]

Say a french Knight in full armour? lol

I don't think it would be very effective in that situation.

[Space Wolves]

I don't think it would be very effective in that situation.

Well basically the thread from another forum went like this


Replace the English army with a roman legion against the French attackers.


Who wins?

Yes thats how it went...

[torongill]

Actually the pilum was supposed to bend AFTER impact, the moment of the wooden part bending the thin iron rod behind the head. But I suppose it was all right as a deterrent against contemporary cavalry. A solid strike against lightly armored horse should not be enough to bend significantly the iron part of the pilum. Against plate armor the outcome might be different. If the armor can resist the penetration long enough, the force of the strike will transmit to the irregularities along the axis of the iron part and bending will occur. It's almost impossible to maintain absolute straightness of the metal part. Once there's a part of the force that does not transmit along the long axis of the iron part, but sideways, bending will occur.
About historical usage - at Pharsalus, Caesar, outnumbered in infantry and massively outnumbered in cavalry(1000 to 6700 for Pompey), deployed six cohorts, around 1700-1800 men, as a reserve obliquely behind his cavalry. Caesar knew his cavalry would not hold the onslaught of the Pompean horse and would retreat. So he instructed the reserve that when the pompeans broke through, they should attack the horsemen, not throwing their pila, but "thrust in their pretty faces" When the Caesarian cavalry retreated and the Pompean horse prepared to charge the Caesarian line in the rear, these 6 cohorts leapt up and proceeded to deliver what has been described as the most decisive charge by infantry upon cavalry in the history of warfare(using their pilums as spears). The Pompean horse panicked and fled, the Caesarian reserve pursued them and attacked the already engaged Pompean foot in the flank. In this moment Caesar ordered his hitherto unengaged third infantry line forward and broke the Pompeans. This is how Empires are born

[Hanny]

Pretty self-explanatory, i kind of dropped the ball with this one, and its made worse seeing i can't find my history books to find out this answer



I know the pilum was quite bendable when it hit on impact, but how effective were they against cavalry.


Say a french Knight in full armour? lol

Tactic was to double the line depth, do not throw pila but hold it, the first 2 ranks hold with this short spear wall, while the rear ranks absorb any impact, and hamstring using swords. Rome inf generaly did failry well against armoured cav armied in their period, but an army is the combined product of its parts, if you want a scientiic answer of kentic energy of a thrown plia, you can sho w if the pila will pentrate the armour of anothe period, iirc it could.

[Ramashan]

Here's some quotes from Vegetius' De Re Militari written around 390ad

As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty.

If they could make them give way, they pursued them; but if they were repulsed by superior bravery or numbers, they retired behind their own heavy armed infantry, which appeared like a wall of iron and renewed the action, at first with their missile weapons, then sword in hand.

As we can see the Infantry used the pilum as missile weapons and the could be used against horse.

[Slaytaninc]

I'd be skeptical about using Vegetius as a source to describe earlier Roman armies.

One, Vegetius was practically an armchair general, and two, by Vegetius's time, the weapons and tactics had evolved quite a bit from Caesar's day.

[hellheaven1987]

Pilum can be effectively penetrated armored targets, but its problem against cavalries is the extremely short range and heavy weight, which reduces the mobility. Overall, pilum is much more useful as a pseudo-spear rather than a javelin when againsting cavalries.

Vegetius probably did not see a pilum in action before - just like 8th Century Frankish historians said they had little idea what francisca was (throwing axe was abandoned by Frankish within one or two generations).

[Mangalore]

Pila are about the size of a musket with bayonet so together with the shields they could form great square formations to foil cavalry attacks. It's not like cavalry could do anything about this problem that charging into a thick bulk of men with pointy sticks wasn't healthy...

It wouldn't have worked very well being thrown though mainly because the number of missiles is 2 per man vs dozens per archer to disrupt a medieval shock charge. I don't think it would be very effective against late medieval armor either because that stuff was designed to prevent worse hits than javelins (doesn't mean it never worked but possibly worse than individual arrows which had the advantage of not being fired individual ).

[AK47]

but how effective were they against cavalry.


Say a french Knight in full armour? lol

Against the best armor made for a French Knight, I would imagine it would hurt like alot even if it didnt penetrate and wound him.

[Ramashan]

I was actually posting Vegetius in regards to the comment that the infantry did not throw the Pila. He mentions them as 'missiles' and I have never met anyone who believed that these were used as static 'spears'. They would have been impractical since the heads were easily bent.

From what I understand, the Pila was used to break up the enemies lines and lower the lines defensive ability by making their shields cumbersome.

As far as Medieval Calvary goes. It may have been able to encumber the knight by sticking into their shields. But otherwise, I'm not sure it would have much effect on a Frankish charge.

[Hanny]

I was actually posting Vegetius in regards to the comment that the infantry did not throw the Pila. He mentions them as 'missiles' and I have never met anyone who believed that these were used as static 'spears'. They would have been impractical since the heads were easily bent.

Well yopu should not do so because late Roman pratciuce was nopt the practice of Caesers day, in which the pratcice was to not throw the pila, but hold them to defeat mounted with.

You can read this in D Head Armies and Enemys of Ancient Rome the 8 deep hold your spear by the first two ranks was standard practice for 2 centurys of the Republic and Empire.

Just beacuse you dont know how the legions fought in the Republican period does not mean i do not either, i do.


At Pharsalus Caesar's infantry were told to thrust their pila at the faces of Pompey's cavalry...who weren't cataphracts either really.....

Arrian's "Order of battle vs the Alans" is a description designed specificaly to fight an asian cataphract charge, has the legionaries 8 deep with the 1st line holding their pila as spears, and javelinmen, archers, horse arhers and artillery shooting over their heads.

Lastly in Veg time there was no pilum!, it had been replaced by the spiculum, a weapon designed for a differnt purpose, and the pila before Marius reforms did not bend on contact, but was designed to pentrate teh shiled and kill/mai the man holding it, Marius reforms of pila added the advantage of bending so as to be non returnable.

[DAVIDE]

watch here the test made by Ars Dimicandi Institute, about perforation power of pila and hasta both reconstructed according to ancient Roman sources

Click here

[Hanny]

watch here the test made by Ars Dimicandi Institute, about perforation power of pila and hasta both reconstructed according to ancient Roman sources

Click here

Intresting link, the music is very tack mind you.

Ive seen the Ermine Street Gaurd do similar things at displays in the UK, along with other things well worth watching, like watching A Hylnad vault over thye rear of her horse to remount wearing full replica armour.

[Mangalore]

Reenacted anti cavalry formation. The pila are used like bayonets. The whole point is just that there are plenty of pointy stuffs making cavalry less inclined to try to trash it.

[Hanny]

Another good photo!.
"Arian describes a formation designed to resist a charge by the heavily armoured horsemen of the Alans. The legionaries were formed eight ranks deep, the first four armed with the pilum, the remainder with a lighter javelin, probably the lancea. The front rank held their pila at forty-five degrees, the butts braced against the ground so that they presented a dense row of points to the enemy. The men in the next three ranks, after throwing their pila, braced themselves against the men in front. The remaining legionaries threw their lanceae while a ninth rank of foot-archers, a tenth rank of horse archers, and artillery added to the barrage of missiles. This heavy weight of missiles would have brought down a fair number of cavalrymen, but even those that survived would not have been able to get into contact with the infantry since their horses would instinctively refuse to gallop into such a seemingly solid object. Once the charge was stopped the continual deluge of javelins and arrows continued to weaken them as they stood impotently a few metres from the infantry line, until, they were inevitably forced to withdraw. Such a solid formation deterred the cavalry from approaching by its very appearance, while the densley packed ranks prevented the Romans from running away."


All i have is text....



(Plutarch Lives Mark Antony45 ....at this the infantry, who carried heavy shields, wheeled so as to enclose the light armed troops within their ranks. Then the legionaries in front dropped on to one knee and held their shields in front of them. Those in the second rank held their shields out over the heads of the first and those behind them took up the same position towards the second rank. This formation, which looks like the tiled roof of a house, makes a striking spectacle and provides the most effective defense against arrows.

According to Plutarch when the Parthian horse archers saw the Romans dropping to one knee they mistook this for exhaustion and so they exchanged their bows for their spears and charged. At which point the Roman front rank stood up and they all shouted a battle cry thrusting their spears into the Parthian front rank and driving the rest off.

[Elfdude]

A pilum would easily cut through French plate thrown hard enough. The major concern is whether the force of the impact (mass*velocity) out does the strength of the plate armor. If we were to imagine the pilum being thrown at 100 KM (not unreasonable considering the training of the soldiers) and the impact to occur over .1 meters (10cm) a 5kg pilum would easily be capable of (assuming I did the math right, I'm not sure I did) 50,000 newtons of force.

Assuming this doesn't obliterate the French armor it would easily knock you off your horse. Add in a 30 kmph calvary charge and you have a definite slaughter. The only real defense against large piercing weapons is a shield because you can hold it away from your body which allows it to absorb significantly more in the way of force and transfer the force safely to you.

IMO, The reason the French lost to the English was not because of the French knights being vulnerable to English longbows but because of the poor logistics of the French army. Had the French crossbowmen been able to unload their pavise shields in several key battles we all might be speaking French today.

[Ramashan]

I'm not denying that the pilum could be used in a static defense system, but then, why would they design them to have the main shaft easily bend? Wouldn't this just make them ineffective after the initial contact?

Here's a segment from Flavius Arrianus' plans against the Alans, so we can consider this a primary resource on the tactics used.

They should deploy in eight ranks and their deployment should be close ordered. And the front four ranks of the formation must be of spearmen, whose spearpoints end in thin iron shanks. And the foremost of them should hold them at the ready, in order that when the enemies near them, they can thrust the ironpoints of the spears at the breast of the horses in particular. Those standing in second, third an fourth rank of the formation must hold their spears ready for thrusting if possible, wounding the horses and killing the horsemen and put the rider out of action with the spear stuck in their heavy body armour and the iron point bent because of the softness. The following ranks should be of the javelineers.

And then later he writes.

And the expectation is that the Scythians will not get close to the infantry battle formation because of the tremendous weight of missiles. If they do close in though, the first three ranks should lock their shields and press their shoulders and receive the charge as strongly as possible in the most closely ordered formation bound together in the strongest manner. The fourth rank will throw their javelins overhead and the first rank will stab at them and their horses with their spears without pause

So, he says the fourth rank hold their 'spears' at the ready, but then later he says the fourth rank should throw their 'javelins'. Now either they are changing weapons mid combat or these are the same weapons and post Marian they would most 'likely' be Pilum. However I can't be 100% since I can't read Greek or Latin.

Just beacuse you dont know how the legions fought in the Republican period does not mean i do not either, i do.

And Hanny, not for nothing, although we have met in other threads, why do you have to make every argument into a personal one? All I did was present the evidence I have as well as the demonstrations I've seen. I actually never said anything regarding your personal knowledge, only countered your comment. I kindly request that you simply stick to the the subject and don't attempt to belittle who comment on what you say, it comes off as rather immature and petty. You can simply counter with resources. Remember, its about the subject, not the person talking about it.