Well that's interesting...

[Jingles]

Green = Catholic
Red = Protestant

Darker areas are more catholic/protestant. Lighter the opposite.

I guess religion really is the opiate of the masses...

[Sir Winston Churchill]

That chart confuses me greatly, and yet makes some sense at the same time.

[Fiyenyaa]

Green = Catholic
Red = Protestant

Darker areas are more catholic/protestant. Lighter the opposite.

I guess religion really is the opiate of the masses...

I'm not really sure how you went from that map to your conclusion. Perhaps some kind of elaboration would be in order?

[Jingles]

Does this help?

[Fiyenyaa]

Does this help?

The flag of a failed state which co-responds to the big pink area in the east.
OK? You do realise that the lighter areas don't neccesarily mean that everyone who isn't Protestant/Catholic is irreligious. I'm still not sure what point you are making; maybe you could spell it out clearly for the slow people like me.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

The flag of a failed state which co-responds to the big pink area in the east.
OK? You do realise that the lighter areas don't neccesarily mean that everyone who isn't Protestant/Catholic is irreligious. I'm still not sure what point you are making; maybe you could spell it out clearly for the slow people like me.

Indeed.

And Jingles if you're trying to say Socialism/Communsim has to do with religion somehow, you're pretty wrong. The religious zones shown on that map in Germany have been that way for hundreds of years. Northern Germany has always been mainly Protestant, Southern Germany has always been mainly Catholic, so you make no sense with this graph telling us things have been the same for about 300 years.

[Jingles]

The flag of a failed state which co-responds to the big pink area in the east.
OK? You do realise that the lighter areas don't neccesarily mean that everyone who isn't Protestant/Catholic is irreligious. I'm still not sure what point you are making; maybe you could spell it out clearly for the slow people like me.

Fine. The point I'm making is that the capitalist half of Germany is significantly more religious than the formerly socialist half. I then placed this in the context of Marx's famous quotation on the subject of religion as part of the bourgeois state.

Indeed.

And Jingles if you're trying to say Socialism/Communsim has to do with religion somehow, you're pretty wrong. The religious zones shown on that map in Germany have been that way for hundreds of years. Northern Germany has always been mainly Protestant, Southern Germany has always been mainly Catholic, so you make no sense with this graph telling us things have been the same for about 300 years.

Socialism and Communism have everything to do with religion, or rather, the church, to be more specific (actually, they purposefully have as little to do with it as possible, technically speaking, but I'm sure you know what I mean).

Also, I'm not trying to demonstrate the historical religious divide between the north and south, I'm illustrating the effect that living in a socialist republic had on people's religious views in the East - A phenomenon that is certainly not 300 years old.

[Fiyenyaa]

Fine. The point I'm making is that the capitalist half of Germany is significantly more religious than the formerly socialist half. I then placed this in the context of Marx's famous quotation on the subject of religion as part of the bourgeois state.

I don't really think that failed communist states are great poster-children for non-religious states. Although the oppression of religion by communist states is generally overblown by those who equate communist with atheism, it does no-one any good to force people to be non-religious.
Germany as a whole is pretty secular today, and it does pretty well. Secularism is a far better solution to religious government than state atheism; it allows personal freedoms as well as allowing government to continue without the hinderance of religion.

[Monarchist]

The point I'm making is that the capitalist half of Germany is significantly more religious than the formerly socialist half. I then placed this in the context of Marx's famous quotation on the subject of religion as part of the bourgeois state.

Then, what more is there to say? I myself believe socialism and communism are evil, and I am religious. What are you going to do? The lesson of this graph is: Communism is a soul-killing philosophy on paper and in practice. That is all that can be inferred from this.

[Dr. Croccer]

Fine. The point I'm making is that the capitalist half of Germany is significantly more religious than the formerly socialist half. I then placed this in the context of Marx's famous quotation on the subject of religion as part of the bourgeois state.

No . Communist states generally implemented State Atheism and had a low tolerance of religion. I'm not sure about East Germany but it wouldn''t surprise me if organised religion was pretty much neutered. Add Marxist indoctrination et voici, a largely secular state. East Germany was relatively moderate in comparison to some other states like Mongolia or Cambodia, where there were basically genocides.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

A phenomenon that is certainly not 300 years old.

Yes it is, the region of Bavaria for example has always been famous for it's heavy Catholic influence. It's just how things are. This was back in the days of Monarchies, then it turned into a Republic, and then a Dictatorship, and then half Dictatorship half Republic, and now a Republic.

It's been the same since, and I think you using Germany as an example to say the governments had something to do with religion is moot. Or at least in the respect I think you're trying to get at.

On the other hand, the Soviet side of Germany would naturally be less religious since there is a lack of tolerance of religion to the Soviets in general, while in the more democratic west there was more freedom of religion. So if anything it just means tyrannical governments have an effect on how people voice their religious opinions, or where they attempt to migrate.

[Helm]

Fine. The point I'm making is that the capitalist half of Germany is significantly more religious than the formerly socialist half.

But I would have expected that.

[Gromovnik]

Why are people in Saarland so religious?

[Phier]

Which side is more into German scat porn? I think that would be more telling.

[Jingles]

I'm told the West was more into the porno, while the East was more into the real thing. Don't know if that helps.

[Jingles]

I would hardly consider the DDR a complete failure under the circumstances. But that's another story. My point is that (certainly in the DDR, I don't know about elsewhere) there was no aggressive policy against religion or the religious. It seems that with capitalism gone, religion just ebbed away.

[Jingles]

I was waiting for you to get here

It would also indicate that without the church as an institution present, people naturally trail away from religion. Which, as a Christian of sorts myself, provides food for thought...

[Monarchist]

I was waiting for you to get here

So, we meet again... Jingle Bombs.

This... was all an elaborate trap to get me? I knew it!

It would also indicate that without the church as an institution present, people naturally trail away from religion. Which, as a Christian of sorts myself, provides food for thought...

I would say it indicates more that Capitalism allows men to express their belief in God more fully than Communism/Socialism. The West kept its religious conviction more than the East because the State was not made into God in the West. When the Left takes over a government, it promotes itself as God above all other things, discouraging belief in anything higher than the State. Capitalism, by contrast, naturally aligns its philosophy with those who believe there is something higher than the State, which limits the State.

These are competing ideas, and I acknowledge that fully. Still... we must be honest before we consider our agendas.

[Fiyenyaa]

I would say it indicates more that Capitalism allows men to express their belief in God more fully than Communism/Socialism. The West kept its religious conviction more than the East because the State was not made into God in the West. When the Left takes over a government, it promotes itself as God above all other things, discouraging belief in anything higher than the State. Capitalism, by contrast, naturally aligns its philosophy with those who believe there is something higher than the State, which limits the State.

These are competing ideas, and I acknowledge that fully. Still... we must be honest before we consider our agendas.

No it doesn't. Capitalism is totally neutral when it comes to "something higher".

[Jingles]

@well... all in general:

The reason I brought up the DDR as an example was because it's stance towards religion was a non-interventionist one. Contrary to popular belief you wouldn't get locked up for claiming to be a Christian, Jew, or whatever. The Catholic church was harassed a bit because of its connections with Rome (I think it should be harassed in general, but that's another debate), but other than that the worst you risked was a disapproving demeanour from your peers.