Macedonia is greek not FYROMian

[Andrew1994]

As you possible know from your history books macedonia is part of the greek civilaization and all of the characters that took part in this were greeks and had greek names(Alexander,Philip etc)

But i willl also would like to read the arguments of the people who think that macedonia is not hellenic

[removeduser_487563287433]

Because we need this thread.

[torongill]

We really need a button "reach over through the internet and bitсhslар a chauvinist". Maybe then all the nationalistic threads here will die a long overdue natural death.

[Farnan]

You're both wrong Macedonia is English.

Alexander and Philip are good English names. And all the books I've read from the time period are in English. It is thus apparent that Alexander the Great was an Englishman.

[removeduser_487563287433]

You're both wrong Macedonia is English.

Alexander and Philip are good English names. And all the books I've read from the time period are in English. It is thus apparent that Alexander the Great was an Englishman.

It's why we have the Elgin Marbles today. Took them off the slavs that settled Greece and took away our lands.

[diegis]

It's why we have the Elgin Marbles today. Took them off the slavs that settled Greece and took away our lands.

Well, despite the joke, that was rude. Stealing something from someone who was "down" and in imposibility to defend itself (and even if was possible to defend, stealing is wrong) and then be proud with them and refuse to return them is wrong.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well, despite the joke, that was rude. Stealing something from someone who was "down" and in imposibility to defend itself (and even if was possible to defend, stealing is wrong) and then be proud with them and refuse to return them is wrong.

I'm not joking. Why do you think there are columns everywhere in Greece that look like the ones around Trafalgar Square. They're English!

[diegis]

I'm not joking. Why do you think there are columns everywhere in Greece that look like the ones around Trafalgar Square. They're English!

But english arent slavomacedonians after all?

[Visarion]

I'm not joking. Why do you think there are columns everywhere in Greece that look like the ones around Trafalgar Square. They're English!

yeah right! good joke!

[Fingon NL]

Could we please put a ban ban on all threads with either greece, FYROM or Macedonia in their titles?

[Farnan]

My joke actually had a point though...

The written evidence we have comes from Greek authors or from authors that relied on Greek authors. They are likely to use the Greek form of names for people, especially those who ruled over the Greek Hegemony, just like we are likely to use Anglicized names. There is also an incentive by Greeks to make them Hellenic in order to avoid the concept of being ruled by barbarians. The Greeks also had a tendency to make some revisions to history and record, many of the Oracle of Delphi's predictions as recorded in Greek Histories are known to be suspect. Not saying whether or not they were Greeks, but saying you can't rely upon them to make your exclusive argument.

Now the question though whether or not they were Greek is...well...irrevalent. Until modern times the concept of ethnicity was very very fluid. One example is actually in the regions now known as Kurdistan. If you were a Christian you were and are an Assyrian, and if you were a Muslim you were and are a Kurd. The same can be seen in the Arab League. Do you think all those people are descended from a few relatively small Bedouin tribes? And finally there is the Mongols, whose ethnicity was really created as a united ethnicity recently. In the time of Chengis Khan they were a large variety of ethnicities in the tribes, but after the uniting and centuries later those ethnicities merged into a Mongol Ethnicity. Actually same for Italy.

The point of the above is that the Macedonians ethnicity changed depending on what time period it was, who was recording the events and their views, and how the Macedonians felt. However, it is known through their interactions with those of the City State that they were viewed to a degree as distinct.

[Eastern Roman]

My joke actually had a point though...

The written evidence we have comes from Greek authors or from authors that relied on Greek authors. They are likely to use the Greek form of names for people, especially those who ruled over the Greek Hegemony, just like we are likely to use Anglicized names. There is also an incentive by Greeks to make them Hellenic in order to avoid the concept of being ruled by barbarians. The Greeks also had a tendency to make some revisions to history and record, many of the Oracle of Delphi's predictions as recorded in Greek Histories are known to be suspect. Not saying whether or not they were Greeks, but saying you can't rely upon them to make your exclusive argument.

Now the question though whether or not they were Greek is...well...irrevalent. Until modern times the concept of ethnicity was very very fluid. One example is actually in the regions now known as Kurdistan. If you were a Christian you were and are an Assyrian, and if you were a Muslim you were and are a Kurd. The same can be seen in the Arab League. Do you think all those people are descended from a few relatively small Bedouin tribes? And finally there is the Mongols, whose ethnicity was really created as a united ethnicity recently. In the time of Chengis Khan they were a large variety of ethnicities in the tribes, but after the uniting and centuries later those ethnicities merged into a Mongol Ethnicity. Actually same for Italy.

The point of the above is that the Macedonians ethnicity changed depending on what time period it was, who was recording the events and their views, and how the Macedonians felt. However, it is known through their interactions with those of the City State that they were viewed to a degree as distinct.

We know today the Persian names in their greek form, ancient greeks never claimed Persia as a greek kingdom, why do so for Macedonia if it wasn't greek ?

[rusina]

We never had this kind of a thread before.

[Farnan]

Ancient Persia was never Hegemon over Greece proper...

[Eastern Roman]

Ancient Persia was never Hegemon over Greece proper...

So? such claim is funny. We know that the Victor writes history, why Macedonians would deny their heritage and try to pass themselves as Greeks ? After all they "conquered" Greece.

Now I'm not saying Macedonia was not Greek or it was Greek. Rather: Its not really possible to know for sure and that it doesn't matter as ethnicity was fluid at the time.

In what terms ? their culture was greek, their language, customs, way of life, gods.

By genetics ? Was the Macedonian not pure Greeks ? what made the rest of the greeks more pure ?

How ancient Greeks "earned" their purity in such times when people were moving from one place to an other? Are we talking about Aryan nations ?

[Farnan]

So? such claim is funny. We know that the Victor writes history, why Macedonians would deny their heritage and try to pass themselves as Greeks ? After all they "conquered" Greece.

Because its cool being Greek. Really, being Greek was an inspiration for Philip and Alexander, they looked to Greek heroes as their heroes. However, here is a translation of the Third Philippic given by Demosthene:

And we the Greek community, seeing and hearing this, instead of sending
embassies to one another about it and expressing indignation, are in
such a miserable state, so intrenched in our miserable towns, that to
this day we can attempt nothing that interest or necessity requires; we
can not combine, or form any association for succor and alliance; we
look unconcernedly on the man's growing power, each resolving (methinks)
to enjoy the interval that another is destroyed in, not caring or
striving for the salvation of Greece: for none can be ignorant, that
Philip, like some course or attack of fever or other disease, is coming
even on those that yet seem very far removed. And you must be sensible,
that whatever wrong the Greeks sustained from Lacedaemonians or from us,
was at least inflicted by genuine people of Greece; and it might be felt
in the same manner as if a lawful son, born to a large fortune,
committed some fault or error in the management of it; on that ground
one would consider him open to censure and reproach, yet it could not be
said that he was an alien, and not heir to the property which he so
dealt with. But if a slave or a spurious child wasted and spoiled what
he had no interest in--Heavens! how much more heinous and hateful would
all have pronounced it! And yet in regard to Philip and his conduct they
feel not this, although he is not only no Greek and noway akin to
Greeks, but not even a barbarian of a place honorable to mention; in
fact, a vile fellow of Macedon, from which a respectable slave could not
be purchased formerly.

http://www.greektexts.com/library/De...ic/eng/94.html

Again, ethnicity is very fluid back then. Trying to tie a group to a current ethnicity is fool hardy.

[Akrotatos]

Oh God, please lock it.

[Farnan]

Now I'm not saying Macedonia was not Greek or it was Greek. Rather: Its not really possible to know for sure and that it doesn't matter as ethnicity was fluid at the time.

[Katsumoto]

Macedonia is Kosovo.

[Eastern Roman]

Demosthenes was a chauvinist and anti-Macedonian.

wiki
He idealized his city and strove throughout his life to restore Athens' supremacy and motivate his compatriots against Philip II of Macedon.

Athens was way more cultural advanced than Macedon, these times. Athenians thought very high of themselves comparing with other Greeks not only Macedonians.