Naval Battles a step backwards

I liked naval battles in Empire because you could still use good tactics and win against the odds, although the handling and damage-models for the ships was a bit unrealistic. So it was with great expectation I went into my first naval action as the British in the Coalition Campaign:

Nelson against the Spanish fleet near Trafalgar, what a classic! And what a let down! After only 10 minutes half of all the ships was sinking or on fire, and after 15 minutes only one ship was fighting on each side!

These giant ships that took years to build and costs millions of £, had been fitted with hulls of eggshells, which could explain the insane fast turnrates and agility that these behemoths displayed!

I think that CA has really destroyed the naval gameplay in order to cater for the (very) casual player that apparently do not have an attention span longer than 15 min. for the worlds biggest naval battle in the age of sails.

What do you think?

Cheers,

I am with you there!!

The naval engagements feel very arcadish, if you can allow the term, even more than Empire.

Not to mention the fact that naval battles are from scarce to non existent in the later parts of the campaigns.

CAI cannot handle the Strategic Naval aspect of the game enough, imho.

Well, I think a lot can be done in changing the damage-model and the ship-handling. If there only was a mod-tool that allowed the player to tweek these things, it could be the best naval battle game on the market.

CA does so many things right, we just need the last 10%...

Cheers,

Have you tried any of the realisim mods which cover naval battlesModding tools would be nice but already many are able to tweak factors to add realisim as again every modding tool thus far for TW games has come from modders not CA but they have made this a much harder game to mod so official tools would be nice lol .

Soul Firez:

Uptil now I have stayed away from the realism mods, because they change so many things in the game. I only want to tweek the naval battles.

R.G.S.:

I stayed with the 1.3 update for Empire, so I avoided the ridicoulus chain-shots and the sloops on stereoids.
My biggest problem with NTW are the damage/firepower models.
It is just too arcadish that a whole bunch of 1st and 2nd rates goes down within the first 10 min. of an naval engagement, and you have to micromanage them all the time because they are so fragile.



Cheers,

The naval gun ranges are far better in N:TW (though still not perfect). 5th rates with chainshot was all that was ever required in Empire against any fleet.

The AI is also better in N:TW IMO. They will turn to engage at their maximum range, whereas in Empire they would always try to get really close allowing you to either hit them really hard before they could even fire, or just continually hit and run, generally till dismasted (the best tactic). Also in N:TW they will not always follow you downwind allowing you to keep hitting them with chain till immobile either (although this could be partly due to the greatly reduced chain shot range).

Ship classes seem more accurately represented too + everything looks much better also (+ national paints + land visible).

Only thing I don't like so far (in comparison to Empire) is that the new pathfinding of player controlled ships doesn't let them get too close to each other without one of them stopping (even though there's clearly space). I micromanage every movement and it's frustrating when I can't turn or move like this.

Finally, the British can't build the the ship class 'Razee' in the GC which is irritating as it's right there in custom battle (sadly the same goes for a number of land units also). Other than these things I'm finding N:TW naval combat much better than Empire.

i was about to disagree but after reading i agree now

There is a realisim mod that is for purely naval fighting i cant vouch for it being any good or adressing the specific problems you find but i can say its not to hard to increase hull strength to lengthen naval engagements ,change shot ranges, shot strengths naval speed, turning speed( i believe never tried that one but believe its possible).

I do agree the naval engagements have been shortened to be more well widely accepted by casual gamers sad fact of buisness you aim to please the wider market where the money is rather than try to make the realisim fanatics happy who are a small section of gamers. So it will be in mods that you find the game you want as CA wont cut there own throat by making naval battles last hours and be very tricky to run even though it would be more realistic it wouldnt appeal to the larger market .

Greetings!

Naval gameplay in NTW (and since 1.4 in ETW) is pure arcade.
Frigates have more range than SoL; Frigates have superior accuracy than SoL, Frigates have far better reload times than SoL.
With NTW the hulls of Third Rates and inferior ships are made of some sort of cardboard.

A patch is needed to recover some level of historical precision to this game. ASAP!

Originally Posted by impar

A patch is needed to recover some level of historical precision to this game. ASAP!

And bore the average player to death. I for one don't want to watch ships circle each other for an hour. I put the complaints ship strength in the same category as ship speed. Its a minority of historical accuracy nutjobs that would gladly sacrifice any fun the game has to have ships crawl across the maps at "historical speeds."

In short, there is nothing wrong with the naval battles in NTW.

Greetings!

Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat

And bore the average player to death.

How would an "average player" be bored to have a First Rate shoot further, with accuracy and decent reload time, than a frigate?

And, yes, repair is a welcome addition to naval battles.

Soul Firez:
Where is that mod? I could not find any.

Well, I dont want to spend hours fighting a naval battle, but loosing 12 1st and 2nd rate's in 15 min. is a bit silly. I do believe CA could have found a middle ground without being "tricky to run".

Cheers,

@PhallosMaximus

You could still use chain shot very successfully and enjoy total chain shot 'ownage' with 1.3, however at least the overall stats were good and at times it was a challenge, just the AI would always pursue downwind and wait too late till engaging allowing you hit hit them repeatedly (whilst unmolested yourself) until they were all immobile. 1.3 stats were the best regarding ranges for sure (though reduced chain range works well in N:TW).

1.4 went nuts with crazily powerful chain shot (which makes me wonder how the hell CA play the game, to develop these changes for a month or so and then release them so badly balanced! Especially when apparently 'balance' was what they were attempting to achieve here, even at the cost of realism).

Clearly everyone said how stupid this 'super chain' was and they knocked it back with 1.5 (to around 1.3 levels), but kept the 500 range 'sniper sloops' etc, the 5th rate thus remained as the most powerful ship in the game (if used right) and it looks like it'll stay that way now for Empire.

Range-wise N:TW is a step back in the right direction, only +50 for the small vessels on round (though should be 0 IMO) + generally an even and reduced range for chain (though there are some oddities here, 1st and 3rd rates are 300 vs. 350 for the rest).

N:TW gives purpose back to the larger vessels and allows the use of round shot again. It's a big improvement over Empire, which for me was always 2-3 5ths (or pos 1 3rd, 2 5ths) with chain, owning against everything. There was simply no need to build anything else as you could always achieve a victory of virtually zero losses and all enemy captured.

I agree aswell, but I must say not everything is bad in NTW Naval battles. For example ships now sink faster but you can repair the hull, with very strong hull and option to repair it would just be too easy to win (AI never uses repair, so I was able to win a 10 to 16 ship battle France against England with no ship lost).

The speed on the other hand is just wrong, realism mods for empire showed how hard it can be with real turnrates. Reducing the speed of all ships could improve many battles. Now first and second rates have incredibly good hull compared to third rate, but the slower reload and bad accuracy dont give them more firepower at normal range (I havent decided yet if its better or worse). All shot types are finally balanced out.

In my eyes half the turn rates and 4 minus speed could really improve the batles.

I think one more plus in NTW concerning Naval Battles is the stability of ships, as gun platforms, which I think affects the precision of shots.

Visually you can see smaller vessels rolling with the sea, going up and down, where higher tier ships seem to be more stable. If this effect has to do with precision then it is a great step forward in realism and gameplay...

Anyone has proof of that??

Greetings!

Originally Posted by MaKoS

Visually you can see smaller vessels rolling with the sea, going up and down, where higher tier ships seem to be more stable. If this effect has to do with precision then it is a great step forward in realism and gameplay...

Anyone has proof of that??

A "sea rolling" Sloop has 70 of accuracy, a stable First Rate has 20 accuracy.

Originally Posted by impar

Greetings!

A "sea rolling" Sloop has 70 of accuracy, a stable First Rate has 20 accuracy.

yeah but, if it is trying to aim from a rollercoaster it would be less effective woudn't it? This is what MaKoS is trying to say.

@Cromagnon2
Yes, that's what I mean, thanks!

@impar
What I hoped to explain is that the lower Tier ships seem to be less stable in rough seas (in reallity but also in the game, at least visually) and this could affect their accuracy.

So for example a sloop with a state of sea 1 (Best) could have no penalties in accuracy where in a sea state of 6 it should have something like 25% of the original accuracy...The seathing and rolling of the ships exists visually in the game but I do not know if this affects the accuracy after all.

Greetings!

Originally Posted by MaKoS

The seathing and rolling of the ships exists visually in the game but I do not know if this affects the accuracy after all.

Observe a broadisde delivered by a ship when it is on the receiving end of another ships broadside.
The hull will roll, does it have an effect on the fire accuracy?

Originally Posted by PhallosMaximus

I liked naval battles in Empire because you could still use good tactics and win against the odds, although the handling and damage-models for the ships was a bit unrealistic. So it was with great expectation I went into my first naval action as the British in the Coalition Campaign:

Nelson against the Spanish fleet near Trafalgar, what a classic! And what a let down! After only 10 minutes half of all the ships was sinking or on fire, and after 15 minutes only one ship was fighting on each side!

These giant ships that took years to build and costs millions of £, had been fitted with hulls of eggshells, which could explain the insane fast turnrates and agility that these behemoths displayed!

I think that CA has really destroyed the naval gameplay in order to cater for the (very) casual player that apparently do not have an attention span longer than 15 min. for the worlds biggest naval battle in the age of sails.

What do you think?

Cheers,

I still dislike the motor-boat turn-rates of the sail ships, but I find NTW to be a big improvement over ETW in naval warfare. For one, chainshot has been reduced to it's proper place (and range).