The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

This thread is to discuss why the Western Empire fell, and Related topics (EG. The DoS and Ricimer)
I have an encyclopedia in my head (LOL) and can answer any questions you have.
Please Stick this thread.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I agree that it fell for military reasons and political reasons. Civil wars battered the military and a rapid sucession of emperors allowed the barbarians to move in while the romans struggled with their petty affairs and internal strife. After chalons, a lot of the Roman heavy infantry and light infantry was gone, so he relied on foederaeti to do his fighting. Aetius was killed, most of the army deserted, and barbarians broke their alliances because they did not ally with the emperor, but with Aetius. Civil wars ravaged the empire until majoran, and when majoran died Roman control of gaul was lost to the DoS, who wouldn't submit to Ricimer. A desperate attempt to retake gaul was thwarted when Rio was ambushed, the emperor also died at the hands of the visigoths, and ERE Leo I's fleet was lost to the vandals because of an incompetent general. Italy fell to a rapid sucession of emperors, and the barbarians turned the romans into a federated state, instead of the barbarians turned into federated state. Finally in 476 the Roman empire was gone, and the Regalia and Legionary Eagles were sent to Nova Roma.

[rsslcs]

It's a bit of everything really, in my opinion.. All the barbarians attacking at once coupled with a huge border to protect meant that the legions were overstretched. An economy based on loot obtained from invasions could never sustain itself once the borders stopped expanding as well.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

That's a good point, but Limitanei garrisons could stop most raids and the Field Armies could counter any incursions. Also, the Empire stabilized under aetius whoReconquered lost territory (eg. Toledo)
and brought in tons of loot.

[Valentinian Victor]

If you read my book list thread you will find the main works that discuss the Fall of the Roman empire and which cover it from the military, economic and social perspectives.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

If you read my book list thread you will find the main works that discuss the Fall of the Roman empire and which cover it from the military, economic and social perspectives.

Which thread is that?

[Valentinian Victor]

Which thread is that?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=224786

[julianus heraclius]

Which thread is that?

You may find this old thread interesting to read as it examines the reasons why the West fell.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=262071

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

thanks

[ray243]

One book you may want to read first will be AHM Jones's work on the later Roman Empire.

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

One book you may want to read first will be AHM Jones's work on the later Roman Empire.

Amazing work.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Thanks for the tip.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Interesting Indeed.
My book on Flavius Aetius focuses on how he affected the Roman Empire's fall. He vastly improved the military situation and stabilized the economic situation,
But had he died naturally or in battle, the alliances he made would have been honoured, and Rome would have lasted much longer as a civilization.
Because he was assassinated by the emperor himself, the foederaeti disbanded and went back to the barbarians, and the barbarians despised the emperor and did not honour their alliances.
This will be reflected in my mod, where if you let aetius die, all armies outside of Italy disband, and the barbarians start ravaging the cities. If he lives, he'll die in the 460s, the foederaeti and armies won't disband, and the alliances will be maintained. Aetius had an incredible mount of influence.

[Julianus Flavius]

I voted economic and political, by which I mean the religious problems faced during this time, the degradation of Roman virtues, etc.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Yes, actually the senate used to choose consuls based on moral value, then in the 200s BC it was based on wealth.
Also, christianity deterred romans from joining the military, because kiling people meant going to hell.

[ray243]

Yes, actually the senate used to choose consuls based on moral value, then in the 200s BC it was based on wealth.
Also, christianity deterred romans from joining the military, because kiling people meant going to hell.

What? Are you basing your view based on what Gibbon has wrote? That view has been outdated for a long time now.

[Julianus Flavius]

Although there were other factors, Christianity was not a religion that helped the Roman cause. It created rifts in society, and things that were previously purely personal suddenly became the interest of the state and people were killed over their religion. I'm not saying that Christianity was/is wrong and 'Paganism' was/is true, but Christianity did create social crises and generally got in the way of the Imperial authorities.

[ray243]

Although there were other factors, Christianity was not a religion that helped the Roman cause. It created rifts in society, and things that were previously purely personal suddenly became the interest of the state and people were killed over their religion. I'm not saying that Christianity was/is wrong and 'Paganism' was/is true, but Christianity did create social crises and generally got in the way of the Imperial authorities.

I'm not denying that. I just find it inaccurate to say that Christianity was the cause for people avoiding military service, when the Roman army in the 6th century which was even more Christianised still manage to find recruits.

Making sweeping statements that Christianity deterred people from the army needs far more proof before anyone can accept it as true.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Not on what gibbon wrote, (I didn't remember reading that), It just did. Christianity promised redemption and a better life, and therefore most people didn't want to get in the affairs of this world. It did not have a mass deterrence though. maybye like 5% which is small

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

It would help debate on the forum, Magistri Militum FlaviusAetius, if you could cite sources which have influenced your opinion. Making bald statements about Christianity in relation to the fall of the western Roman Empire hinders people from enjoying a developing conversation. If you say 'It just did' then no one will be able to discuss it with you in a productive and stimulating way! By referencing your sources which have allowed you to hold this opinion, we can read them ourselves and critique or learn as the debate continues.

I am not personally aware of Christianity as such deterring Romans from joining the military - in fact, wasn't it Constantine who introduced military chaplains for the first time into the legions?

Some of the early Church Fathers taught that the profession of arms was incompatible with a true Christian life. But after the victory for the Cross at the Milvian Bridge a change passed over the Church. It leaned more and more upon earthly power, and became militant. This infusion into the Church of the military spirit of Rome was one of the most important consequences of the story of the miraculous cross in the sky, and of the espousal of the Christian cause by the emperor Constantine. (Van Ness Myers, Philip. Ancient History. Published by Ginn and company, 1916 Original from the New York Public Library Digitized Sep 26, 2007pp. 480-481)

In the last years of his life Constantine made plans for a campaign against Persia. In a letter written to the king of Persia, Shapur, Constantine had asserted his patronage over Persia's Christian subjects and urged Shapur to treat them well.[221] The letter is undatable. In response to border raids, Constantine sent Constantius to guard the eastern frontier in 335. In 336, prince Narseh invaded Armenia (a Christian kingdom since 301) and installed a Persian client on the throne. Constantine then resolved to campaign against Persia himself. He treated the war as a Christian crusade, calling for bishops to accompany the army and commissioning a tent in the shape of a church to follow him everywhere. Constantine planned to be baptized in the Jordan River before crossing into Persia. Persian diplomats came to Constantinople over the winter of 336–7, seeking peace, but Constantine turned them away. The campaign was called off however, when Constantine fell sick in the spring of 337 This last from wiki, of course.

Hardly a deterrent, I think.