Nations and states, how people piss me off.

[Megas Methuselah]

It really gets under my skin when people call states "nations." For example, the nation of France, or the USA nation. There are very few nation-states in the world nowadays, and calling a state a nation is just wrong and insulting to a state's internal nations. This might seem nit-picky to a lot of you guys, but when someone calls Canada or the USA a nation, it seriously insults me and the existence of my people, thankyouverymuchyouignorantjerk.

Rough definitions are...

Nation: A grouping of people who share real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government.

State: The set of governing and supportive institutions that have sovereignty over a definite territory and population.

[Gertrudius]

You know that the "real or imagined" and the "or" makes it ambiguous enough to not be mutually exclusive. I think your concentrating too heavily on the ethnic aspect, because both the USA and Canada respectively have a common history, have overwhelming cultural majorities, and are linguistically united for the most part.

[Treize]

I live in a nation-state...

[removeduser_487563287433]

It really gets under my skin when people call states "nations." For example, the nation of France, or the USA nation. There are very few nation-states in the world nowadays, and calling a state a nation is just wrong and insulting to a state's internal nations. This might seem nit-picky to a lot of you guys, but when someone calls Canada or the USA a nation, it seriously insults me and the existence of my people, thankyouverymuchyouignorantjerk.

Rough definitions are...

Nation: A grouping of people who share real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government.

State: The set of governing and supportive institutions that have sovereignty over a definite territory and population.

Not worth discussing. There's some people here that will argue for the incorrect definition of states and nations until they die.

I life in a nation-state...

The Netherlands? Certainly not. Made up of several nations. Netherlands Antilles is a constituent part of the state, for example, not to mention the traditional nations of Holland etc. etc.

Portugal is a nation-state.

[Treize]

The Netherlands? Certainly not. Made up of several nations. Netherlands Antilles is a constituent part of the state, for example, not to mention the traditional nations of Holland etc. etc

Except that Aruba and the Antilles are two autonomous countries, without their own foreign policy and (actually they do have) their own military.

Besides the whole 'we are such a different people' stuff is not very correct IMO.

[swabian]

It's indeed nitpicking. "Nation" isn't all that focused on ethncity, ancestry, culture, etc. The term "nation-state" has already been mentioned and it is also common in political science to distinguish between cultural nation and the nation due to the will to form a nation.

I rather think there is a tendency among patriots to fight for the purity of their ideology, lest it might be called "nationalism", because the inclusion of an ethnical construct makes such a heck of a difference /facepalm.

[removeduser_487563287433]

No, that's entirely wrong. A nation state has nothing to do with distinguishing between "cultural" nations and "the will to form a nation".

A nation state is a state that coincides geographically with a single nation. i.e. Portugal is a nation state, as the political geographical sovereignty of the state corresponds to the territory of the nation. The UK is not a nation state, as it contains several different nations within its sovereign borders.

See?

[swabian]

No, that's entirely wrong. A nation state has nothing to do with distinguishing between "cultural" nations and "the will to form a nation".

Who said that?

A nation state is a state that coincides geographically with a single nation. i.e. Portugal is a nation state, as the political geographical sovereignty of the state corresponds to the territory of the nation. The UK is not a nation state, as it contains several different nations within its sovereign borders.

See?

Perhaps, but you can still call France or the US a "nation". Please help yourself if you want to die for nitpicking against that, i have better things to do.

[Copperknickers II]

Perhaps, but you can still call France or the US a "nation".

You could, but you would be using the English word 'nation' in a meaning that would be recognised by no dictionary in the world. I can call a horse a lion all i want but that doesn't make it one.

[swabian]

You could, but you would be using the English word 'nation' in a meaning that would be recognised by no dictionary in the world. I can call a horse a lion all i want but that doesn't make it one.

There is no such a strict separation of the terms nation and state and certainly not in the slightest a reason to dramatise this difference as it happens here. But i agree that this dramatisation is possible due to predispositions in the English language.

The US is a nation in the sense that it's members don't have common ancestry but they decided to merge together in an empathically connected community and to share a patriotically strengthened identity. The German word for this is "Willensnation", alas, there is no translation for it (here are suggestions to translate it http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_...ensnation.html ).

Language is also an essential aspect of nationality, which is met by and large by the linguistic situation in the US. Skin colour and ancestry only result in a pseudo-diversity, the culture in the US only has a significant substructure regarding the north-south divide, an exception may be the Chinatowns.

[CiviC]

There is no such a strict separation of the terms nation and state and certainly not in the slightest a reason to dramatise this difference as it happens here. But i agree that this dramatisation is possible due to predispositions in the English language.

The US is a nation in the sense that it's members don't have common ancestry but they decided to merge together in an empathically connected community and to share a patriotically strengthened identity. The German word for this is "Willensnation", alas, there is no translation for it (here are suggestions to translate it http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_...ensnation.html ).

Willensnation is "nation by will" or civic nation and it's the model of French and other non ethnic nations. You are a citizen thus the member of the nation, the nation is not based on ethnicity but on the political will of its citizens to constitute such a body, this is the voluntarist theory of the nation.

Language is also an essential aspect of nationality, which is met by and large by the linguistic situation in the US. Skin colour and ancestry only result in a pseudo-diversity, the culture in the US only has a significant substructure regarding the north-south divide, an exception may be the Chinatowns.

Indeed one features of nations is the use (usually) of one language by all members of the nation. In an ethnic nation it's easy to understand that the official language of the nation-state is the language of the ethnicity that has the respective state as its homeland. In non-ethnic nation-states like France or US, the official language is the language that imposed under certain historical circomstances. There the language plays also an unifying and uniformising role : all citizens use that language in everyday life even if their native language or that of their ancestors would be other language.

There are nation-states that have several languages as official like the Swiss - they are not a multinational state, they consider they are only one nation that speaks 4 main languages. The fundations of Swiss nation are not a unique language but geography, traditions, history, culture, solidarity, etc.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Perhaps, but you can still call France or the US a "nation". Please help yourself if you want to die for nitpicking against that, i have better things to do.

No, you can't. The USA is not a nation, it is a state. Within that state are many nations, such as a vast variety of native Americans. France too, contains distinct nations, such as Brittany.

[Copperknickers II]

No, you can't. The USA is not a nation, it is a state. Within that state are many nations, such as a vast variety of native Americans. France too, contains distinct nations, such as Brittany.

Actually the US is a federation or superstate, like India (or the EU in 25 years).

[removeduser_487563287433]

I've explained this to you. Whether the US is a federation or has a unitary Government is irrelevent to whether the USA is a state or a nation or a nation state.

[Copperknickers II]

Whether it is a state, nation or nationstate is irrelevent anyway because it is none of those.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It is a state. Anybody who knows what the word means knows this. Where's LoZz?

[Surgeon]

I think that really is nit-picky. Sorry but I'd rather use the simple definitions provided by my dictionary than argue semantics spawned by some politician who had to make it up when he got sued for using the wrong one. No need to make the Mudpit sound even more anal retentive.

[Farnan]

There are only two nation-states left in the world:

North Korea and Iceland.

France has the Basques, the Britons, the Normans, the Alsatians, the Lorrainians, the Corsicans plus the inhabitants of all their colonies who moved to Metropolitan France or live in their overseas departments.


The Netherlands has Frisians, Hollanders, and people from all around their colonies who live there.

[removeduser_487563287433]

There are only two nation-states left in the world:

North Korea and Iceland.

France has the Basques, the Britons, the Normans, the Alsatians, the Lorrainians, the Corsicans plus the inhabitants of all their colonies who moved to Metropolitan France or live in their overseas departments.


The Netherlands has Frisians, Hollanders, and people from all around their colonies who live there.

Potugal is a nation state.

[Treize]

Yea we have different peope in all our provinces...