If only there was a mod like this on NTW.
NTW solves so many of these problems, at least that's how it's been with me...
Domesticus
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
If only there was a mod like this on NTW.
NTW solves so many of these problems, at least that's how it's been with me...
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
couldn't a script be made to give money to AIs depending on the number of cities they hold or key locations? More money would be given from port cities but a blockade one would give no money bonus to the AI. Couldn't this bring back the tactic of blocking ports?
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Originally Posted by blindbladexxx
Well maybe, but then what is the sense of the script? Isn't the current money script when the AI is losing money, the scripts activate?
Artifex
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
problem is that the AI always loses money due to upkeep.. which gives them money script from which they buy more units.. which cost them upkeep.. which makes them lose money.. which gives them money script..
kindalike this i guess
Domesticus
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
It's possible to make a "OMG THE AI LOST IT'S MOST IMPORTANT REGIONS, IT'S NOW BANKRUPT" script that neutralizes the money script when the AI loses certain regions.
Domesticus
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Uhm, do any of you scripters out there think something like this would work?
Feel free to test/fix errors in it, it's just a rough suggestion at this point... but it's supposed to counter the money script when a faction loses some of it's most important regions (note how, if you take all the settlements listed from a faction, the money script is 100% neutralized).Code:;########################## WEAKENED ECONOMY SCRIPT ########################## ; This script neutralizes the money script if the AI factions loses it's most important regions. ; Mordor: monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType england and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Gorgoroth = england add_money england -7500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType england and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Morgul-Vale = england add_money england -1500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType england and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Udun = england add_money england -1000 end_monitor ; Isengard: monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType france and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Nan-Curunir = france add_money france -9500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType france and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Dunland = france add_money france -500 end_monitor ; OotMM monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hre and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner High-Pass = hre add_money hre -4500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hre and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Misty-Mountains = hre add_money hre -2500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hre and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Carn-Dum = hre add_money hre -2500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hre and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Mt-Gram = hre add_money hre -500 end_monitor ; Harad monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType spain and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Harad = spain add_money spain -3000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType spain and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Gobel-Ancalimon = spain add_money spain -2000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType spain and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Umbar = spain add_money spain -2000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType spain and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Near-Harad = spain add_money spain -2000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType spain and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Amrun = spain add_money spain -1000 end_monitor ; Rhun monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType venice and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Mistrand = venice add_money venice -4000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType venice and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Rhun = venice add_money venice -4000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType venice and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Kelepar = venice add_money venice -1000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType venice and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Morad = venice add_money venice -1000 end_monitor ; Gondor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType sicily and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Anorien = sicily add_money sicily -5000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType sicily and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Belfalas = sicily add_money sicily -2000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType sicily and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Lossarnach = sicily add_money sicily -1500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType sicily and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Lebennin = sicily add_money sicily -1500 end_monitor ; Rohan monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Kings-Land = milan add_money milan -6000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Helms-Deep = milan add_money milan -2000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Eastfold = milan add_money milan -1000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Westfold = milan add_money milan -1000 end_monitor ; Dale monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType scotland and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Esgaroth = scotland add_money scotland -5500 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType scotland and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Dale = scotland add_money scotland -4500 end_monitor ; Dwarves monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType moors and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Erebor = moors add_money moors -4000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType moors and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Ered-Luin = moors add_money moors -3000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType moors and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Nan-i-Naugrim = moors add_money moors -2000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType moors and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Iron-Hills = moors add_money moors -1000 end_monitor ; Eriador monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType turks and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Bree = turks add_money turks -7000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType turks and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Shire = turks add_money turks -3000 end_monitor ; High Elves monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType egypt and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Imladris = egypt add_money egypt -7000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType egypt and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Mithlond = egypt add_money egypt -1000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType egypt and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Forlindon = egypt add_money egypt -1000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType egypt and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Harlindon = egypt add_money egypt -1000 end_monitor ; Silvan Elves monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType mongols and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Elven-Mirkwood = mongols add_money mongols -4000 end_monitor monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType mongols and IsFactionAIControlled and not I_SettlementOwner Lothlorien = mongols add_money mongols -6000 end_monitor
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Officer jhon, the problem ain t money the problem is stack scripting.
As i sayd in another thread scanning the scripting , the stack are created in 3 major situations and maybe 4 derivative situations:
1)
Faction X Settlement Y do not belong to X / Derivative belong to slave /
2)
Faction X Settlement count < X (ex:3)
3)
Faction X Settlement Siege maintained activated by Faction Y (Someone besieging the AI) / derivative Siege maintained activated by any faction.
can t remember all derivatives
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Wouldn't players exploit that by targeting the cities purposely to stop the scripts which will then cause the AI faction to fall?
What about a script that only target the deficits they are losing every turn when they been in the red for a certain amount of turns? I suppose not, right?
What is causing the AI to bankrupt itself anyways? The Attacking and garrison scripts may be somewhat of a problem that chains the Money script together. Once you invade their territory, they get the script activate to cause a greater army to appear despite their economy. THAT seems to be the problem that needs fixing. Don't know tbh though... On Vanilla Medium difficulty, I rarely see a faction go in the red, unless I or some other AI been harming it.
Last edited by [Tar]Naru33; March 26, 2010 at 05:59 PM.
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
I would say the tatical AI of MTW2 is weak, with many flaws players explore to win.
So TATW had to find something to counter player sheats.
Giving money only wouldn t fit the bill so they had to create troops for the AI opposing faction. But in the process they overdone it. It creates too much situations in which a full stack is created, you can cut off AI income as much as you want it will be for naught, understand its not the AI that create troops by money income, the troops just appears, the AI doesn t care about money -1 or -1000000000, doesnt mean anything for him as long he has troops in his hands. Now its a matter of finding others solutions that would work, or mitigate the actual scripting so he create lesser stacks or weaker ones.
Unless someone is able to change the tatical AI scripts.
In my understanding, the best solution would be:
1) modifying tatical AI in map so it act better.
2) increase money only so he use his troops in a better/challenging, so the spawn script can be deleted.
i still have to find the script partof it, but i would bet the AI thrown all troops out of a settlement as long as they are >1 and out of free upkeep. Thats why we see so many weird acting troops in the wild with cities overly empty and easy to crush.
Last edited by Slaunyeh; March 26, 2010 at 06:39 PM.
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
I have no idea what any of you guys are talking about here. Granted I have not played through as all the factions,but I have played as all the so called hard ones. Gondor, Mordor, OotMM, Eraindor they were all pretty easy even on VH/VH.
My strategy is simple. Step one. Make a big army. Step two attack. What is so complex? I'm not being sarcastic here and I'm not claiming to be some kind of Total war genius.
When you see their armies attack them. Form a line on high ground set your archers in the back then sweep your Generals around the sides are roll up the flanks how is that hard?
Sure occasionally you get beat in the field when you are way outgunned and once in a while maybe even lose a settlement if they come up with a stack where you weren't expecting it, but the AI simply can't follow through on its victories so it really doesn't matter.
The only time I have even had trouble was playing Eraindor when I just let the clock run to about T200 after killing OotMM and Isengard. Harad and Mordor conquered Gondor. But by then I had taken about 40 territories so it really made no difference even with the AWFUL units Eraindor has.
Like I said I wouldn't consider myself to be above a fair player and even playing VH/VH RR/RC, no loading, no cheats, I usually finish before T100. Thank God for stack spawning or this game would be a sleeper.
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Let me outline some main points:
1.) Ai must spam stacks, cause it's dumper than you and you want challenge. Some have tried to create a master TW campaign Ai - I have not seen a satisfactory result until now and have played a lot TW games.
2.) The way it's done in TA is not satisfactory to many people, cause it leads to repetitive battles as stated, at least if you wanna turtle a bit a not play hitler on Arda. (I play vh/vh, folks, and my only problem is boredom, not loosing).
3.) It's not the money that makes'em spam, it's the scripts. Both, money scripts (+10.000denari for ai when broke) and army spam scipts (that work in a way Slaunyeh has described above) make TA one of the most poor TW games strategically: No blocking of economy and so forth as people stated; main strategy, again as people have stated, is go straight for destruction. Even this is not very challenging in most cases. Some people find it's funny, i myself like to 'play with the mouse' a little. In TA if you do this, the mouse doubles every second.
4.) Players win most battles easily, because ai does some dump stuff, again as stated in this threads and others over and over (and btw keeps me from playing TW - don't like to shoot on standing targets anymore). Battles that are a challenge to win are seldom, but the real fun!
I tried some approaches and have a question:
I have reduced money script (between +2000 and 5000 when ai broke), altered king's purse for ai and no king's purse for players.
[I once tried to raise the value of trade a lot (also included merchants again), completely cancelled king's purse and cancelled many scripts - but this got to easy for the player again - ai being too dump and very easy to outmaneuver/ outwit economically. Still, you win all the battles and have few losses and that decides the game quickly this way.]
Then I started to reduce unit replenish rates a lot, so you need time to build up your armies. I seem to like it very much - but didn't have time and motivation to test it enough, otherwise I might have published some of this to you guys. (Family keeps me busy).
What I think I need (instead of the existing army-spam-scripts) is a script that spams troops in ai settlements when the ai looses troops in battle against a human player. Maybe at a ratio of 1/3 or 2/3s of the lost troops. Maybe dependent on the number of cities the ai still has (less cities - less troops spammed). So for example: You fight a full Ootmm stack with your Elves and wipe it out completely. Then one third (or two thirds) of one full stack spams distributed over the Ootm settlements. If you wipe a smaller stack fewer goblins spam. The storyline of this would be: Outraged by the message of the great loss many more decide to join war.
Through this (still including garrison script, which I like) I'd hope to get an exciting game, which is challenging strategically including economics and offering different approaches. Still pushing ai through unit spamming, but without senseless, endless and annoying mass-spam, it should be challenging and sometimes force you to retreat, if you haven't forseen a certain developement or missjudged a situation (because you won't be able to built troops fastly out of nothing anywhere, even with money).
I have hardly ever put my nose into scripting, so can anyone help me write such a thing?\
I would be thankfull for a mere "spam units when lost units in battle against player" - formula, which I couldn't make up myself.
Thx and keep up. Nice thread!
MAN in the HIGH CASTLE
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
It was when my veteran Citadel Fountainmen guarding the far shore of Osgiliath got their arses mashed through their mithril ringed coats by the huge feet of trolls I kinda lost the will to play as Groandor for a while. Single stack Mordor army had war trolls too! There where six units of trolls. Three quarters of my army where tough upgraded fountain guards all veteran on defend mode. Still got mashed! *sigh*
One thing I'd consider is make the Trolls 'cavalry'. They bloody run fast enough! Then at least we can skewwer the big bastiches on archer spikes...!
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
TATW directed me to put difficulty to VH/VH. At first I was against this, but decided to heed the instruction in hopes that the gameplay would balance out. Actually, I am doing okay with this setting. The factions are putting up quite a real fight where vanilla M2TW factions would have long lost their momentum. Actually, I like it this way playing Mordor. Elves fight to the bitter end and hardly rout, Dwarves are stout fighters with those blasted Khazaad Duum warriors ( until I took Khazaad Duum ), and men are not as tough but plentiful. My only regret is that Mordor has no cavalry other than the Ringwraiths. Trolls also seem few and far between, I think it is tied to the amount of Troll buildings. Against the more fearsome enemy generals, I use my general to kill him or else catapults. Sometimes I get my own general killed when I forget to cancel action on my catapults.
Last edited by ArmoredSergeant; March 29, 2010 at 01:44 AM. Reason: Clarification
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
+ rep for posting on a thread that's been untouched for almost two years
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
HAHA, thx.
See: youre not the only "old war horse" here...
@milosh, okay, when you're interested I'll bring it.
But I need some time... let's say 2 years? Haha.
"Do you want Total War?"
Senator
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
WellI feel like I created this thread just the other day
Groovy
Libertus
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Hi everyone, it's good to see this discussion alive again. I come back from time to time to check on the mod and I must say I'm in awe of how far its come, though the subject of this discussion is the very reason I always feel something missing when I play any Total War. Though it may not be for everyone and the gentleman above is toying with his own solution (which I find rather promising), I would recommend Alleycats's Turtle Mod. He has done an outstanding job in my humble opinion. Just thought I might offer an alternative, I'm always surprised that his work is overlooked.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=383258
Libertus
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
Can you tell me how does Baron solve this? If you don't I'll have to compare the whole vanilla campaign_script with Baron's, and please don't do that to me.Well
Senator
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
You'd be better off PMing Baron himself for the answer, cause honestly I don't know the specifics. I know he takes away some of the gold and army bonuses the AI gets in vanilla TATW, but thats the extent of my knowlegde, sorry.Can you tell me how does Baron solve this? If you don't I'll have to compare the whole vanilla campaign_script with Baron's, and please don't do that to me.
Groovy
Re: I like a challenge, but not like this......
First of all, to me this is the one mod to rule them all
But I have to agree with the original post. After trying this mod on "easy" I would not want to play it even on "hard". I hate loosing anyway, but loosing because of such obvious cheating is just more than I could take. I mean, honestly: The way things are now, I make my enemy stronger by attacking him, and he gets even better when I BEAT him. When I lay siege to one of his cities, it's like giving him infinite amounts of troops, starting with full stacks of elite soldiers when I dare to attack a settlement spawned directly into it.
But I guess there is no AI in the world that could take care of it without taking away the fun for those who are searching for a challenge.
I think I could live with sudden reinforcements from time to time, when there is an explanation. The rise of balrogs in Moria makes sense to me, although I was pissed of. The rise of 15 units of hardcore Gondor troops when laying siege to Pelagrim, that was only defended by one sorry unit pissed me off and I stayed that way. I could have lived with an army of the undead, led by Aragorn, and there's a whole book full of stories one could use to explain the last-minute deux-ex-machina help coming to aid, (it's called "Lord of the rings",btw) Of course I would stay angry, but I would accept it, because Tolkien is an authority I do not question...
You (meaning the creators of the mod) have done a wonderful job besides that. I can throw "Battle of Middle-Earth" and all the other attempts to digitalize the ring wars right out of the window, this is by far the best.
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