Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    So this isn't quite an AAR. I just need some advice. I'm playing as Sicily (and yes, on Easy cuz I'm still a n00b).

    I've taken a few settlements north of me and allied with the Papal States, France, and the Holy Roman Empire. Around turn 20 something, the Moors declared war against me by blockading a port. I thought, "Eh what the hell, I'll return the favor." So I took 2 of their cities. Genoa is gone, as I destroyed them within the first 7 turns (It had to be done). I'm playing a short campaign btw.

    I am now getting close to the #1 faction in Production, Population, and Overall, but I'm spreading myself thin, and don't know where to turn next. Should I expand into Moor territory and start taking more of their cities? Or should I keep the two that I have and leave it at that for now and defend them until I build up more of an economy? They won't accept a Ceasefire at this point either (and I don't blame them )

    I'll let you all decide and help me out.

    Pictures below of where I'm at.

    The blown up map of where my settlements are at the moment:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Units in the Moor cities that I have control of:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    So let me know what's next
    Last edited by xxmaelstrom; March 20, 2010 at 06:17 PM.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  2. #2
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,693

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    If the Moors wont make peace, then I'd say keep attacking them. You could try sending a diplomat/princess to Aragon, Portugal and Leon-Castille and see if you can entice them to attack the Moors from their end. Get them in a pincer movement Once you take the Moor's African settlements, you'll start getting decent trade income once you can build up ports etc.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  3. #3

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Clivus View Post
    If the Moors wont make peace, then I'd say keep attacking them. You could try sending a diplomat/princess to Aragon, Portugal and Leon-Castille and see if you can entice them to attack the Moors from their end. Get them in a pincer movement Once you take the Moor's African settlements, you'll start getting decent trade income once you can build up ports etc.
    I had the idea of attacking them since they won't accept peace. I did think of a princess or diplomat to Spain or Portugal to help out too. I'll do that and see if I can't get their help. Having control of Africa will put me at the top once I can keep everything going economically.

    You wouldn't happen to have tips on how to take the rest of the Moors would you? I'm a bit of a beginner when it comes to battles and what I should recruit and how much.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  4. #4
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,693

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by xxmaelstrom View Post
    You wouldn't happen to have tips on how to take the rest of the Moors would you? I'm a bit of a beginner when it comes to battles and what I should recruit and how much.
    Sorry mate it's been a long time since I've played a western european faction or fought against the Moors. But someone else will be able to give you some tips. Lots of knowledgeable folks here

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  5. #5

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Clivus View Post
    Sorry mate it's been a long time since I've played a western european faction or fought against the Moors. But someone else will be able to give you some tips. Lots of knowledgeable folks here
    It's okay! I'll wait for other responses. Thanks for the help though!

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    I played a 6.1 Sicilian campaign and tried to go the route of Western expansion through Africa. Unfortunately quick expansion came with the problem of having to have a lot of troops spread out, and very little left over to build economic upgrades to make things a bit more profitable.

    What I'd probably do is develop a 3 Phase plan.

    Phase I, Economic development.
    Keep your troop needs light, putting as much money as possible into developing the economy. I'd avoid expanding too much until you have the infrastructure to support such expansion. If you do have a large army that is sitting around collecting dust, and wasting money on upkeep, and a crusade hasn't been called, perhaps it's time to convince the Pope that the Moors are deserving of being spanked!

    Choose a target relatively west that Aragon, Castile, Portugal and perhaps France will get excited about. Have as many forces as you can spare from garrison duty (that aren't getting free upkeep) to join the crusade so as to cut down expenses, but not so much that you risk attack from a neighbor.

    Take your time, but don't take too much time that you risk desertion. Use the movement to get you to and sack the first Moorish settlement on the following turn. Sack the settlement, put taxes on high, leave it ungarrisoned and let it rebel if so desired, you can always come back after. Move to the next settlement and repeat. You should be able to avoid desertion, and you'll get an influx of income from sacking (perhaps not a whole lot, but every bit can help), and you won't be paying upkeep for these soldiers.

    Ideally send a disposable general or two. Someone who is rather lacking in stats who will either die, or become a war machine. The idea is that you send these troops out to do as much damage as possible without concern if they ultimately fail in their mission. I wouldn't be concerned so much by taking the crusade objective. The crusade is intended to divert the attention of the Moors towards the other catholics, and if one of the other factions does claim the objective, they will have to deal with the Moors.


    Phase II, Infiltration and Subterfuge.
    If you didn't need to reduce your upkeep costs or go on crusade, Phase II is all about causing economic warfare against the Moors by sabotage, unrest and Revolt.

    Sabotage: Each building you sabotage is one more they have to spend money to repair.
    Unrest: The more unrest you can generate, the more they have to spend garrisoning with troops, or reduce the tax rate, so as to reduce the amount of income they can generate from their settlements
    Revolt: Obviously, if they lose the settlement, it ain't going to be generating much income for them.

    Train up spies, assassins and priests. Spam as many as you can. 6-8 priests can do an amazing job of converting a region. Combine with sabotage against their religious buildings to keep them from not only recruiting more Imams to combat your priests, but to keep the religious buildings from passive converting. Use assassins to kill off enemy Imams.

    When you are ready to invade, you will appreciate that the conversion process has already begun, and won't have to struggle to maintain control of new acquisitions. This has the benefit that you will need far less troops to maintain public order than if Catholicism is 0%.

    Phase III, Blitz the Moors
    Once you have sufficient income to support a larger military, build up 2-3 invasion forces. To be really effective you can include several catapults/Trebuchets, or a few well trained spies. Load them onto ships and drop off your forces within a short march of their settlements, and siege. If you can open the gates with spies, or you have access to catapults, you'll be able to attack on the same turn, which is far preferable as you won't have to wait, and it'll be less likely the Moors can respond.

    Which settlements should you Blitz?

    Phase I: First army to Cagliari, second army to Beleb el Anab and third army to Tripoli.
    Phase II: Send first army (Cagliari) over to Palma. March (or sail) second army to Algiers. Send Tripoli army west, or use to garrison. Depending on attitude of Fatimids, perhaps take Benghazi if it has decent infrastructure. You could use Benghazi as a launching point into Egypt and claim the rich territory of Alexandria and Cairo.
    Phase III: Send first army (Palma) onwards to Melilla (or assist the second army with cleanup of Moorish stacks in the vicinity. Send second army (Algiers) onward towards Oran.

    If you can combine this Phase with another crusade, all the better. Ensure your alliances with your northern and eastern neighbors are fairly secure, so they don't think about a land grab.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by sbroadbent View Post
    I played a 6.1 Sicilian campaign and tried to go the route of Western expansion through Africa. Unfortunately quick expansion came with the problem of having to have a lot of troops spread out, and very little left over to build economic upgrades to make things a bit more profitable.

    What I'd probably do is develop a 3 Phase plan.

    Phase I, Economic development.
    Keep your troop needs light, putting as much money as possible into developing the economy. I'd avoid expanding too much until you have the infrastructure to support such expansion. If you do have a large army that is sitting around collecting dust, and wasting money on upkeep, and a crusade hasn't been called, perhaps it's time to convince the Pope that the Moors are deserving of being spanked!

    Choose a target relatively west that Aragon, Castile, Portugal and perhaps France will get excited about. Have as many forces as you can spare from garrison duty (that aren't getting free upkeep) to join the crusade so as to cut down expenses, but not so much that you risk attack from a neighbor.

    Take your time, but don't take too much time that you risk desertion. Use the movement to get you to and sack the first Moorish settlement on the following turn. Sack the settlement, put taxes on high, leave it ungarrisoned and let it rebel if so desired, you can always come back after. Move to the next settlement and repeat. You should be able to avoid desertion, and you'll get an influx of income from sacking (perhaps not a whole lot, but every bit can help), and you won't be paying upkeep for these soldiers.

    Ideally send a disposable general or two. Someone who is rather lacking in stats who will either die, or become a war machine. The idea is that you send these troops out to do as much damage as possible without concern if they ultimately fail in their mission. I wouldn't be concerned so much by taking the crusade objective. The crusade is intended to divert the attention of the Moors towards the other catholics, and if one of the other factions does claim the objective, they will have to deal with the Moors.


    Phase II, Infiltration and Subterfuge.
    If you didn't need to reduce your upkeep costs or go on crusade, Phase II is all about causing economic warfare against the Moors by sabotage, unrest and Revolt.

    Sabotage: Each building you sabotage is one more they have to spend money to repair.
    Unrest: The more unrest you can generate, the more they have to spend garrisoning with troops, or reduce the tax rate, so as to reduce the amount of income they can generate from their settlements
    Revolt: Obviously, if they lose the settlement, it ain't going to be generating much income for them.

    Train up spies, assassins and priests. Spam as many as you can. 6-8 priests can do an amazing job of converting a region. Combine with sabotage against their religious buildings to keep them from not only recruiting more Imams to combat your priests, but to keep the religious buildings from passive converting. Use assassins to kill off enemy Imams.

    When you are ready to invade, you will appreciate that the conversion process has already begun, and won't have to struggle to maintain control of new acquisitions. This has the benefit that you will need far less troops to maintain public order than if Catholicism is 0%.

    Phase III, Blitz the Moors
    Once you have sufficient income to support a larger military, build up 2-3 invasion forces. To be really effective you can include several catapults/Trebuchets, or a few well trained spies. Load them onto ships and drop off your forces within a short march of their settlements, and siege. If you can open the gates with spies, or you have access to catapults, you'll be able to attack on the same turn, which is far preferable as you won't have to wait, and it'll be less likely the Moors can respond.

    Which settlements should you Blitz?

    Phase I: First army to Cagliari, second army to Beleb el Anab and third army to Tripoli.
    Phase II: Send first army (Cagliari) over to Palma. March (or sail) second army to Algiers. Send Tripoli army west, or use to garrison. Depending on attitude of Fatimids, perhaps take Benghazi if it has decent infrastructure. You could use Benghazi as a launching point into Egypt and claim the rich territory of Alexandria and Cairo.
    Phase III: Send first army (Palma) onwards to Melilla (or assist the second army with cleanup of Moorish stacks in the vicinity. Send second army (Algiers) onward towards Oran.

    If you can combine this Phase with another crusade, all the better. Ensure your alliances with your northern and eastern neighbors are fairly secure, so they don't think about a land grab.
    Thanks a lot man! This helps a lot. I'm going to try for another Crusade when I start playing again. I'll try the diplomacy with the Moors' neighbors and get them in on it too. Though I played a little bit before and they attack one of my minor settlements (<700 Income) on its own little island, and the Rebels take Tripoli like 2-3 turns after starting up again. So I'll see what I can do. When do I know that I have the economy to support a large army? I have trouble figuring that out.
    Last edited by xxmaelstrom; March 20, 2010 at 08:01 PM.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  8. #8

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Make an army, dont build any buildings, and look how big army you can make without going red with the upkeep costs.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by xxmaelstrom View Post
    Thanks a lot man! This helps a lot. I'm going to try for another Crusade when I start playing again. I'll try the diplomacy with the Moors' neighbors and get them in on it too. Though I played a little bit before and they attack one of my minor settlements (<700 Income) on its own little island, and the Rebels take Tripoli like 2-3 turns after starting up again. So I'll see what I can do. When do I know that I have the economy to support a large army? I have trouble figuring that out.
    A simple answer would be to take a look at what units you have available, decide how many you need for each army, add up their upkeep costs, and that gives you an idea of how much income you need, just to maintain those forces. That of course doesn't take into account agent wages, plus necessary retraining/recruitment that you may need in the event something bad happens from the north or east.

    If you know what type of troops the enemy has in particular locations (benefit of spies) you can tailor your invasion force to take advantage of their weaknesses.

    Well, if the Rebels take Tripoli, that's alright. The reason to take Tripoli would be to maintain a single front in this war with the Moors. If you eliminate their hold on Tripoli, then you needn't worry about them coming from that direction, as well as so that you can keep your other settlements minimally garrisoned while you throw most of your forces on the offensive. Always maintain as many free garrison units as possible though. They are free, and while by no means can stand up to a full stack on their own, is far better to have just in case. If the Moors lose Tripoli, that either reduces the income required to support your army, or enables you to throw more resources into grabbing settlements or fighting field armies.

    I'd probably skip an eastern push if Tripoli isn't going to be a concern, until you can consolidate your holdings in the west.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by sbroadbent View Post
    A simple answer would be to take a look at what units you have available, decide how many you need for each army, add up their upkeep costs, and that gives you an idea of how much income you need, just to maintain those forces. That of course doesn't take into account agent wages, plus necessary retraining/recruitment that you may need in the event something bad happens from the north or east.

    If you know what type of troops the enemy has in particular locations (benefit of spies) you can tailor your invasion force to take advantage of their weaknesses.

    Well, if the Rebels take Tripoli, that's alright. The reason to take Tripoli would be to maintain a single front in this war with the Moors. If you eliminate their hold on Tripoli, then you needn't worry about them coming from that direction, as well as so that you can keep your other settlements minimally garrisoned while you throw most of your forces on the offensive. Always maintain as many free garrison units as possible though. They are free, and while by no means can stand up to a full stack on their own, is far better to have just in case. If the Moors lose Tripoli, that either reduces the income required to support your army, or enables you to throw more resources into grabbing settlements or fighting field armies.

    I'd probably skip an eastern push if Tripoli isn't going to be a concern, until you can consolidate your holdings in the west.
    I reloaded and took a different approach. They tried to take a Genoan city I have and failed. The rebels didn't (or haven't) taken Tripoli yet so I'm making my way to take it soon. I haven't been building many military buildings yet so I have to do that to catch up first.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  11. #11

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    I'd say sweep towards the western moorish cities and leave Tripoli as a buffer against the Fatimids.

    Start pumping out militia grade troops to cheaply garrison blitzed settlements while leaving your knights free to advance. Having a couple of high chiv generals in the area help out lots with the initial unrest in the conquered that might slow your advance.
    Half of life is getting people to go away.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasmus View Post
    I'd say sweep towards the western moorish cities and leave Tripoli as a buffer against the Fatimids.

    Start pumping out militia grade troops to cheaply garrison blitzed settlements while leaving your knights free to advance. Having a couple of high chiv generals in the area help out lots with the initial unrest in the conquered that might slow your advance.
    I took one of their island cities, sacked it, then destroyed whatever buildings and put the taxes to very high and took my people out to set them back a bit and set my eyes on Tripoli to take because it's not garrisoned very well. I'm trying to get my economy stable though while building military buildings and troops cuz I've lost money a few turns but I'm still stable at 40-50k.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  13. #13

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    I would decide who you want to fight later on... leaving the Moors alone will balance the Iberians, take out Moors and the Iberians will come after you eventually. If you do take Moors now I would send 2 armies by ship to Morocco and capture Fez etc first. Then move east with those armies and sending some reinforcements by ship... perhaps even raid Algiers or some castle on the way to draw Moors armies and block their movement. Withdraw that blocking force by ship if it is threatened. Moors fall pretty fast if you use your navy so it is rather boring campaign to me.

    More fun would be entering Holy Land or fighting Byzantines who it appears killed off all Hungary family and led to lots of rebel lands they are eating up. Venice is a nice buffer vs HRE but probably it can't handle both HRE and a strong Byz so you could ally with them and help or just take them out quick and see where to go from there.

    You might also decide to gift some lands to France and take the Med islands, Crete, Rhodes, etc... and see what happens with Byz and Fatimids meanwhile, that way France keeps a balance in N Europe and maybe even becomes a fun opponent later on while you gain more control of Med.

    Any of the Med nations can become strong quickly aside from Genoa(still takes a few turns for them only starting with 2 small city) due to naval control and strong trade income.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    I would go after Venice for that juicy income in the north of Italy

  15. #15

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Wait for Venice to expel the Germans from Italy (they almost always do). Have a little war with Venice, take Venice itself and some other cities then offer peace in exchange for Ancona/Milan/Bologna. Then call a Crusade against Granada. Hopefully a non-Iberian faction (or even Portugal/Aragon) will take it, making it harder for Iberia to unite. Then take out the Moors in North Africa, making sure to grab Cagliari and Palma. You can pursue Venice into the Balkans if you want. Is this Early or Late Era start?
    ...ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Walter View Post
    Wait for Venice to expel the Germans from Italy (they almost always do). Have a little war with Venice, take Venice itself and some other cities then offer peace in exchange for Ancona/Milan/Bologna. Then call a Crusade against Granada. Hopefully a non-Iberian faction (or even Portugal/Aragon) will take it, making it harder for Iberia to unite. Then take out the Moors in North Africa, making sure to grab Cagliari and Palma. You can pursue Venice into the Balkans if you want. Is this Early or Late Era start?
    Late Era start. I was going to go after Venice, but I know I'd lose standing with the Pope. I'd probably also cause a few other factions to hate me as well since I think Venice is allied with some strong ones. I was going to take over Tripoli and then wait a while before doing anything else with the Moors.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  17. #17

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Tripoli is mine . The Fatimid allied with me right after I took Tripoli and now I have a Ceasefire with the Moors (for now). I'll probably start taking them again in about 10-20 turns. I'll build my economy and military buildings up more for now and start thinking about taking Venice.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  18. #18

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Walter View Post
    Wait for Venice to expel the Germans from Italy (they almost always do). Have a little war with Venice, take Venice itself and some other cities then offer peace in exchange for Ancona/Milan/Bologna. Then call a Crusade against Granada. Hopefully a non-Iberian faction (or even Portugal/Aragon) will take it, making it harder for Iberia to unite. Then take out the Moors in North Africa, making sure to grab Cagliari and Palma. You can pursue Venice into the Balkans if you want. Is this Early or Late Era start?
    If I gift places though, I lose income

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

  19. #19

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by xxmaelstrom View Post
    If I gift places though, I lose income
    I meant a ceasefire in exchange for being given a settlement
    ...ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Sicily - Where To Go From Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Walter View Post
    I meant a ceasefire in exchange for being given a settlement
    Ohhhh! Hehe, have them give me a settlement in exchange for me to stop massacring them . I'll try that out when I start attacking Venice.

    "All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players" --Shakespeare

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •