Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25

Thread: Prepare to rethink evolution

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,493

    Default Prepare to rethink evolution

    No this is not a creationist thread.

    Incredible new findings on how environmental factors can affect the activation of genes and, as such, what offspring inherit.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The story, still sometimes repeated in creationist circles, goes like this: it is the 1960s, at Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Centre in Maryland, and a team of astronomers is using cutting-edge computers to recreate the orbits of the planets, thousands of years in the past. Suddenly, an error message flashes up. There's a problem: way back in history, one whole day appears to be missing.

    The scientists are baffled, until a Christian member of the team dimly recalls something and rushes to fetch a Bible. He thumbs through it until he reaches the Book of Joshua, chapter 10, in which Joshua asks God to stop the world for . . . "about a full day!" Uproar in the computer lab. The astronomers have happened upon proof that God controls the universe on a day-to-day basis, that the Bible is literally true, and that by extension the "myth" of creation is, in fact, a reality. Darwin was wrong – according to another creationist rumour, he'd recanted on his deathbed, anyway – and here, at last, is scientific evidence!

    Inevitably, those of us who aren't professional scientists have to take a lot of science on trust. And one of the things that makes it so easy to trust the standard view of evolution, in particular, is amply illustrated by the legend of the Nasa astronomers: the doubters are so deluded or dishonest that one needn't waste time with them. Unfortunately, that also makes it embarrassingly awkward to ask a question that seems, in the light of recent studies and several popular books, to be growing ever more pertinent. What if Darwin's theory of evolution – or, at least, Darwin's theory of evolution as most of us learned it at school and believe we understand it – is, in crucial respects, not entirely accurate?

    Such talk, naturally, is liable to drive evolutionary biologists into a rage, or, in the case of Richard Dawkins, into even more of a rage than usual. They have a point: nobody wants to provide ammunition to the proponents of creationism or "intelligent design", and it's true that few of the studies now coming to public prominence are all that revolutionary to the experts. But in the culture at large, we may be on the brink of a major shift in perspective, with enormous implications for how most of us think about how life came to be the way it is. As the science writer David Shenk puts it in his new book, The Genius in All of Us, "This is big, big stuff – perhaps the most important [discoveries] in the science of heredity since the gene."

    Take, to begin with, the Swedish chickens. Three years ago, researchers led by a professor at the university of Linköping in Sweden created a henhouse that was specially designed to make its chicken occupants feel stressed. The lighting was manipulated to make the rhythms of night and day unpredictable, so the chickens lost track of when to eat or roost. Unsurprisingly, perhaps, they showed a significant decrease in their ability to learn how to find food hidden in a maze.

    The surprising part is what happened next: the chickens were moved back to a non-stressful environment, where they conceived and hatched chicks who were raised without stress – and yet these chicks, too, demonstrated unexpectedly poor skills at finding food in a maze. They appeared to have inherited a problem that had been induced in their mothers through the environment. Further research established that the inherited change had altered the chicks' "gene expression" – the way certain genes are turned "on" or "off", bestowing any given animal with specific traits. The stress had affected the mother hens on a genetic level, and they had passed it on to their offspring.

    The Swedish chicken study was one of several recent breakthroughs in the youthful field of epigenetics, which primarily studies the epigenome, the protective package of proteins around which genetic material – strands of DNA – is wrapped. The epigenome plays a crucial role in determining which genes actually express themselves in a creature's traits: in effect, it switches certain genes on or off, or turns them up or down in intensity. It isn't news that the environment can alter the epigenome; what's news is that those changes can be inherited. And this doesn't, of course, apply only to chickens: some of the most striking findings come from research involving humans.

    One study, again from Sweden, looked at lifespans in Norrbotten, the country's northernmost province, where harvests are usually sparse but occasionally overflowing, meaning that, historically, children sometimes grew up with wildly varying food intake from one year to the next. A single period of extreme overeating in the midst of the usual short supply, researchers found, could cause a man's grandsons to die an average of 32 years earlier than if his childhood food intake had been steadier. Your own eating patterns, this implies, may affect your grandchildren's lifespans, years before your grandchildren – or even your children – are a twinkle in anybody's eye.

    It might not be immediately obvious why this has such profound implications for evolution. In the way it's generally understood, the whole point of natural selection – the so-called "modern synthesis" of Darwin's theories with subsequent discoveries about genes – is its beautiful, breathtaking, devastating simplicity. In each generation, genes undergo random mutations, making offspring subtly different from their parents; those mutations that enhance an organism's abilities to thrive and reproduce in its own particular environment will tend to spread through populations, while those that make successful breeding less likely will eventually peter out.

    As years of bestselling books by Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and others have seeped into the culture, we've come to understand that the awesome power of natural selection – frequently referred to as the best idea in the history of science – lies in the sheer elegance of the way such simple principles have generated the unbelievable complexities of life. From two elementary notions – random mutation, and the filtering power of the environment – have emerged, over millennia, such marvels as eyes, the wings of birds and the human brain.

    Yet epigenetics suggests this isn't the whole story. If what happens to you during your lifetime – living in a stress-inducing henhouse, say, or overeating in northern Sweden – can affect how your genes express themselves in future generations, the absolutely simple version of natural selection begins to look questionable. Rather than genes simply "offering up" a random smorgasbord of traits in each new generation, which then either prove suited or unsuited to the environment, it seems that the environment plays a role in creating those traits in future generations, if only in a short-term and reversible way. You begin to feel slightly sorry for the much-mocked pre-Darwinian zoologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, whose own version of evolution held, most famously, that giraffes have long necks because their ancestors were "obliged to browse on the leaves of trees and to make constant efforts to reach them". As a matter of natural history, he probably wasn't right about how giraffes' necks came to be so long. But Lamarck was scorned for a much more general apparent mistake: the idea that lifestyle might be able to influence heredity. "Today," notes David Shenk, "any high school student knows that genes are passed on unchanged from parent to child, and to the next generation and the next. Lifestyle cannot alter heredity. Except now it turns out that it can . . ."

    Epigenetics is the most vivid reason why the popular understanding of evolution might need revising, but it's not the only one. We've learned that huge proportions of the human genome consist of viruses, or virus-like materials, raising the notion that they got there through infection – meaning that natural selection acts not just on random mutations, but on new stuff that's introduced from elsewhere. Relatedly, there is growing evidence, at the level of microbes, of genes being transferred not just vertically, from ancestors to parents to offspring, but also horizontally, between organisms. The researchers Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfield conclude that, on average, a bacterium may have obtained 10% of its genes from other organisms in its environment.

    To an outsider, this is mind-blowing: since most of the history of life on earth has been the history of micro-organisms, the evidence for horizontal transfer suggests that a mainly Darwinian account of evolution may be only the latest version, applicable to the most recent, much more complex forms of life. Perhaps, before that, most evolution was based on horizontal exchange. Which gives rise to a compelling philosophical puzzle: if a genome is what defines an organism, yet those organisms can swap genes freely, what does it even mean to draw a clear line between one organism and another? "It's natural to wonder," Goldenfield told New Scientist recently, "if the very concept of an organism in isolation is still valid at this level." In natural selection, we all know, the fittest win out over their rivals. But what if you can't establish clear boundaries between rivals in the first place?

    It is a decade since the biologist Randy Thornhill and the anthropologist Craig Palmer published The Natural History of Rape. In the book, they made an argument that – however obnoxious at first glance – seemed, to many, to follow straightforwardly from the logic of natural selection. Evolution tells us that the traits that flourish down the generations are the ones that help organisms reproduce. Evolutionary psychology argues that there's no reason to exclude psychological traits. And since rape is indeed a trait that occurs all too frequently in human society, it follows that a desire to commit rape must be adaptive. There must be a genetic basis for it – a "rape gene", in the words of some media stories following the book's publication – because, in prehistoric times, those men who possessed the tendency would reproduce more successfully than those who didn't. Therefore, the authors concluded, rape was – to use a loaded term that has been getting Darwinians in trouble since Darwin – "natural".

    Understandably, the book was hugely controversial. But by the time it was published, there was nothing all that radical about the idea that natural selection might be able to illuminate any and every aspect of human behaviour. Evolutionary psychology, in the hands of various practitioners, sought to explain why militarism is so prevalent in human societies, or why men tend to dominate women in so many hierarchical organisations. If the field seems less politically charged these days, that is only because it has permeated our consciousness so deeply that it has become less questioned.

    For much of the late Noughties, a week never seemed to pass without one new book or news story attributing some facet of modern-day life to the evolutionary past: men were more prone to sexual jealousy than women because a woman who conceives becomes unavailable for imminent future acts of reproduction; men preferred women with waist-to-hip ratios of 0.7 because of natural selection. It explained music and art and why we reward senior executives with top-floor corner offices (because we evolved to want a clear view of our enemies approaching across the savannah). Leftwing and feminist critics did frequently misinterpret evolutionary psychology, imagining that when scholars described some trait as adaptive, they meant it was morally justifiable. But that was how many such findings – often better described as speculations – came to be believed. We're not exactly saying it's right for, say, men to sleep around, evolutionary psychologists would observe with a knowing sigh, but . . . well, good luck trying to change millennia of evolved behaviour.

    Far more than biologists, evolutionary psychologists bought in to the ultra-simple version of natural selection, and so they stand to lose far more from advances in our understanding of what's really been going on. They were always prone to telling "just-so stories" – spinning plausible tales about why some trait might be adaptive, instead of demonstrating that it was – and numerous recent studies have begun to chip away at what evidence there was. (That waist-to-hip ratio finding, for example, doesn't seem to hold up in the face of international and historical research.) And now, if epigenetics and other developments are coming to suggest that environment can alter heredity, the very terms of the debate – of nature versus nurture – suddenly become shaky. It's not even a matter of settling on a compromise, a "mixture" of nature and nurture. Rather, the concepts of "nature" and "nurture" seem to be growing meaningless. What does "nature" even mean if you can nurture the nature of your descendants?

    This is one central argument of Shenk's new book, subheaded Why Everything You've Been Told About Genetics, Talent and IQ is Wrong. All our popular notions about talent and "genetic gifts", he points out, start to collapse if the eating habits of Tiger Woods's ancestors, for example, might have played a role in Woods's golfing abilities. (Woods always crops up in discussions on the origins of genius; more recently, he has started cropping up in evolutionary psychology discussions about whether promiscuity is inevitable.)

    "What all this evidence shows is that we need a much more subtle and nuanced understanding of Darwinism and natural selection," Shenk says. "I think that's inevitably going to happen among scientists. The question is how much nuance will carry over into the public sphere . . . it's really funny how difficult it is to have this conversation, even with a lot of people who understand the science. We're stuck with a pretty limited way of viewing all this, and I think part of that comes from the terms" – such as nature and nurture – "that we have."

    Among the arsenal of studies at Shenk's disposal is one published last year in the Journal of Neuroscience, involving mice bred to possess genetically inherited memory problems. As small recompense for having been bred to be scatterbrained, they were kept in an environment full of stimulating mouse fun: plenty of toys, exercise and attention. Key aspects of their memory skills were shown to improve, and crucially so did those of their offspring, even though the offspring had never experienced the stimulating environment, even as foetuses.

    "If a geneticist had suggested as recently as the 1990s that a 12-year-old kid could improve the intellectual nimbleness of his or her future children by studying harder now," writes Shenk, "that scientist would have been laughed right out of the hall." Not so now.

    And then there is Jerry Fodor, the American philosopher. I started reading What Darwin Got Wrong, the new book he has co-authored with the cognitive scientist Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini, one morning, along with that day's first coffee. A few pages later, as the coffee kicked in, I grasped with astonishment what Fodor had done. He hadn't just identified evidence that natural selection was more complicated than previously thought – he'd uncovered a glaring flaw in the whole notion! Natural selection, he explains, simply "cannot be the primary engine of evolution". I got up and refilled my cup. But by the time I returned, his argument had slipped from my grasp. Suddenly, he seemed obviously wrong, tied up in philosophical knots of his own creation. I alternated between these two convictions. Was Fodor's critique so devastatingly correct that his critics – Dawkins, Dennett, the Cambridge philosopher Simon Blackburn, and many others – simply couldn't see it? Had he actually managed to . . . but then it slipped away again, vanishing into mental fog.

    I called Fodor and asked him to explain his point in language an infant school pupil could understand. "Can't be done," he shot back. "These issues really are complicated. If we're right that Darwin and Darwinists have missed the point we've been making for 150 years, that's not because it's a simple point and Darwin was stupid. It's a really complicated issue."

    Fodor's objection is a distant cousin of one that rears its head every few years: doesn't "survival of the fittest" just mean "survival of those that survive", since the only criterion of fitness is that a creature does, indeed, survive and reproduce? The American rightwing noisemaker Ann Coulter makes the point in her 2006 pro-creationist tirade Godless: The Church of American Liberalism. "Through the process of natural selection, the 'fittest' survive, [but] who are the 'fittest'? The ones who survive!" she sneers. "Why, look – it happens every time! The 'survival of the fittest' would be a joke if it weren't part of the belief system of a fanatical cult infesting the Scientific Community."

    This argument, perhaps uniquely among all arguments ever made by Coulter, feels persuasive, not least because it is a reasonable criticism of some pop-Darwinism. In fact, though, it's entirely possible for scientists to measure fitness using criteria other than survival, and thus to avoid circular logic. For example, you might hypothesise that speed is a helpful thing to have if you're an antelope, then hypothesise the kind of leg structure you'd want to have, as an antelope, in order to run fast; then you'd examine antelopes to see if they do indeed have something approximating this kind of leg structure, and you'd examine the fossil record, to see if other kinds of leg died out.

    Fodor's point is more complex than this, although it's also possible that it is not really a point at all: several reviews of the book by professional evolutionary theorists and philosophers have concluded that it is, indeed, nonsense. As far as I can make out, it can be summarised in three steps. Step one: Fodor notes – undeniably correctly – that not every trait a creature possesses is necessarily adaptive. Some just come along for the ride: for example, genes that express as tameness in domesticated foxes and dogs also seem to express as floppy ears, for no evident reason. Other traits are, as logicians say, "coextensive": a polar bear, for example, has the trait of "whiteness" and also the trait of "being the same colour as its environment". (Yes, that's a brain-stretching, possibly insanity-inducing statement. Take a deep breath.) Step two: natural selection, according to its theorists, is a force that "selects for" certain traits. (Floppy ears appear to serve no purpose, so while they may have been "selected", as a matter of fact, they weren't "selected for". And polar bears, we'd surely all agree, were "selected for" being the same colour as their environment, not for being white per se: being white is no use as camouflage if snow is, say, orange.)

    Step three is Fodor's coup de grace: how, he says, can that possibly be? The whole point of Darwinian evolution is that it has no mind, no intelligence. But to "select for" certain traits – as opposed to just "selecting" them by not having them die out – wouldn't natural selection have to have some kind of mind? It might be obvious to you that being the same colour as your environment is more important than being white, if you're a polar bear, but that's because you just ran a thought-experiment about a hypothetical situation involving orange snow. Evolution can't run thought experiments, because it can't think. "Darwin has a theory that centrally turns on the notion of 'selection-for'," says Fodor. "And yet he can't give an account – nobody could give an account – of how natural selection could distinguish between correlated traits. He waffles."

    Those of us baffled by this argument can take solace in the fact that we're not alone. The general response to Fodor among evolutionary thinkers has been a mixture of derision and awkwardness, as if one of their previously esteemed colleagues had entered the senior common room naked. Says Dennett, via email: "Jerry Fodor's book is a stunning demonstration of how abhorrence of an idea (Jerry's visceral dislike of evolutionary thinking) can derange an otherwise clever thinker . . . a responsible academic is supposed to be able to control irrational impulses, [but] Fodor has simply collapsed in the face of his dread and composed some dreadfully bad arguments." What Darwin Got Wrong, Dennett concludes, is "a book that so transparently misconstrues its target that it would be laughable were it not such dangerous mischief".

    It would be jawdroppingly surprising, to say the least, were Fodor to be right. A safer, if mealy-mouthed, conclusion to draw is that his work acts as an important warning to those of us who think we understand natural selection. It's probably not a bankrupt concept, as Fodor claims. But nor should laypeople assume that it's self-evidently simple and exhaustively true.

    The irony in all this is that Darwin himself never claimed that it was. He went to his deathbed protesting that he'd been misinterpreted: there was no reason, he said, to assume that natural selection was the only imaginable mechanism of evolution. Darwin, writing before the discovery of DNA, knew very well that his work heralded the beginning of a journey to understand the origins and development of life. All we may be discovering now is that we remain closer to the beginning of that journey than we've come to think.

    Further reading
    • From Time magazine, an excellent piece on epigenetics: http://bit.ly/5Kyj5q
    • The Genius in All of Us: Why Everything You've Been Told about Genetics, Talent and IQ is Wrong, by David Shenk, is published by Doubleday. What Darwin Got Wrong by Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini is published by Profile, price £20
    • For more on "horizontal evolution" see New Scientist: http://bit.ly/4zzAsr
    • Also from New Scientist, more on the role of viruses in evolution: http://bit.ly/bD4NLC


    Original text found here.

  2. #2
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    7,335

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    So lifestyle traits are inheritable in a temporary and reversible way.

    Doesn't really change evolution imo.

  3. #3
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,493

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    So lifestyle traits are inheritable in a temporary and reversible way.

    Doesn't really change evolution imo.
    It implies that the entire driving force behind evolution - natural selection - isn't such a driving force as previously thought. It changes things quite a lot.

  4. #4
    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    5,228

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    This isn't as groundbreaking as you make it out to be. Epigenetics is a fairly well-known and accepted process in the scientific community by now and has been tested by various experiments. However due to various limitations (for example, epigenetic influence would pertain only mother-child inheritance when dealing with new generations. Maternal mRNAs in the ovocyte, and fathers do not pass them at all) it's not the driving force behind evolution. That role is still for natural selection.

    Why the media is only now catching on is the real mystery... And why they bring up Fodor's pretty outrageous book is another one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    It implies that the entire driving force behind evolution - natural selection - isn't such a driving force as previously thought. It changes things quite a lot.
    No, it simply means that there are other mechanisms besides it. But this isn't exactly a revelation: we've known for a very long time that processes like sexual selection can act as a substitute for natural selection. Now we can add epigenetics to that list.
    The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath
    --- Mark 2:27

    Atheism is simply a way of clearing the space for better conservations.
    --- Sam Harris

  5. #5
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    7,335

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    I'm not even sure if we can call this evolution, the changes aren't in any definition of the word permanent which evolutionary mutations are.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Now, I kind of skimmed the article, but as far as I can see, they didn't mention anything about having a control group. How is a study supposed to have reliable results without a control group???

  7. #7

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Oddly I feel the same about evolution as before I read that.

    There is one thing I can say I agree with the articles author. He is NOT a professional scientist.

    It really does nothing to the theory of evolution or even the concept of natural selection, its just another mechanism of gene expression which itself would be under the influence of natural selection.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  8. #8
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    The Carpathian Forests (formerly Scotlland)
    Posts
    12,641

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Nothing new here, the only people who need to rethink evolution are people who have been living under a rock for the past 20 years and people who didn't know anything about evolution in the first place. It mentions this in the Wikipedia article ffs.
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; March 20, 2010 at 08:11 PM.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  9. #9
    cpdwane's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cornwall, England
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Reading this article, I can't see why adding a few extra processes to evolutionary theory should cause too much of a suprise. I've never doubted that there may be other processes (entirely natural processes of course, no creationism) at work other then just survival of the fittest. I think a lot of evolution may actually be caused by hybridization.

    __________"Ancient History is my Achilles' Heel"___________

  10. #10
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    The Carpathian Forests (formerly Scotlland)
    Posts
    12,641

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Hybridisation as in the production of offspring between two different species, such as a liger or mule? Unfortunately those are sterile so they can't pass on their genes.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  11. #11
    cpdwane's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cornwall, England
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    From what I understand, there are exceptions where the female isn't sterile. Also, the sterility is (I think) partly down down to the fact that the two organisms involved have different numbers of chromosones, but asuming they have the same number, there shouldn't be so much of a problem. I am only really suggesting hybredization as a reason for the elaborate variety of colours in things like tropical fish species, which at the same time seem to sometimes be taking elements of their colour patterns from a number of other speices. Don't quote me on this though, I'm probably wrong, or at least off the mark a bit

    Edit: For example, Beefalo are a mostly ferile hybrid between a Bison and a cow. Wolphins, a cross between a Dolphin and a false killer whale, are also often fertile.
    Last edited by cpdwane; March 23, 2010 at 05:55 PM.

    __________"Ancient History is my Achilles' Heel"___________

  12. #12
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    7,335

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by cpdwane View Post
    From what I understand, there are exceptions where the female isn't sterile. Also, the sterility is (I think) partly down down to the fact that the two organisms involved have different numbers of chromosones, but asuming they have the same number, there shouldn't be so much of a problem. I am only really suggesting hybredization as a reason for the elaborate variety of colours in things like tropical fish species, which at the same time seem to sometimes be taking elements of their colour patterns from a number of other speices. Don't quote me on this though, I'm probably wrong, or at least off the mark a bit
    Kind of. When I was younger I had thought of similar ideas. While it's possible for reintegration of a population within a species if it hasn't evolved far enough (in fact this is the reason humans may have white skin, asian skin, red hair or green/blue eyes etc) the genes that control basic phenotypical things are fairly easy to modify with eugenic (breeding) principles very quickly.

    Most hybrids are unstable. This is because overtime the number of mutations between two individual populations builds up. Eventually this hits a critical limit where the genomes are no longer compatible i.e. the number of mutations is too much for even the redundancy and inbuilt defenses to cope with. The parent genomes can never merge thus fertilization can't happen. This could be because of chromosome count but it could be merely because of basic genetics. Chromosome count does not = species, obviously there's no animal with thousands of chromosomes but there are thousands of species.

    For example - old genetics:

    A fish has two states, sandy colored or tropical colored. The tropical colorings are favored for sexual display however the sandy colorings are favored for camoflage. Because there has been no natural predator for years most of these hypothetical fish are tropical colored.

    A hypothetical predator finds its way to the pristine habitat. Because the sandy colored genes still exist within the genome some fish of the next generation are sandy. Contrary to history the tropical fish quickly die out because the predator finds them easy to catch. This leads to a transformation of tropical colored fish to sandy fish.

    Another example - New Genetics:

    A fish has only one state. Tropical. The tropical colorings are favored for sexual display however they make the fish rediculously easy to catch. Because there has been no natural predator for years however the tropical displays have gotten brighter and more vivid. As fish breed at fertilization and during the creation of gametes the genome undergoes several opportunities to randomly mutate and reorganize itself. Since only one gene controls the development of colorings it frequently mutates.

    A hypothetical predator is added to the mix. The tropical colorings quickly begin to mute themselves and become sandy colorings. This is because of the capacity for single genes to mutate. Eventually a less vivid fish coloring will be produced which will be marginally more successful because it can escape the predator easier. Thus over time the fish will lose their tropical colorings in favor of mutating new colors because a new evolutionary stimuli has been produced.

  13. #13
    Adar's Avatar Just doing it
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    6,741

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    The chicken study is actually one of the reasons for why I got into a nitpicky arguement with Simmetrical last year (here) . Basicly I think that the article is exactly like the Jehovas Witnesses "advice book" on how to raise children. It begins in a correct and sensible way and then slowly slide off the path of sanity.

    The problem here is that the author (and Fodor) take some results, mix it with their own lack of knowledge and then go one and extrapolate it into absurdity.

    For example, Fodors "coup de grace" is:

    "Evolution can't run thought experiments, because it can't think."

    Which of course is incorrect. We even use "evolutionary modelling" in bioinformatics to conduct experiments, where we try to identify the optimal structure of proteins. What we do is that we randomly combine/switch amino acids* in the protein sequence and then check what combinations offer the best affinity to a certain structure. The best structures are then kept for the next generation of random combinations while the rest are thrown away like an orange polar bear on Svalbard.

  14. #14
    Valiant Champion's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    5,402

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Intelligent design clear and simple to understand

  15. #15
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    7,335

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Champion View Post
    Intelligent design clear and simple to understand


    Unless you think about it in any detail... then you're left with more questions than it answers.

  16. #16
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Curtrycke
    Posts
    15,076

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Champion View Post
    Intelligent design clear and simple to understand
    And also most likely wrong.

    (unless the entire system of evolution is the design, but then you'd wonder why it's so dependant on random mutations)

  17. #17
    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    5,228

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Champion View Post
    Intelligent design clear and simple to understand
    Sure.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath
    --- Mark 2:27

    Atheism is simply a way of clearing the space for better conservations.
    --- Sam Harris

  18. #18
    Valiant Champion's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    5,402

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbuster View Post
    Sure.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Your response contradicts Occams razor.

    For one we know that the DNA strand is form of data storage system. Arranged in a fashion where it gives directions on how an organisms parts are to be organized, their size and composition. Therefore it is a program which in computer programs would mean it is a simple form of AI. Although not artificial but a natural intelligence.

    which brings into bearing as to how life began. Simple question of course right?






    Than adding to this programs data by ancestor suggestion over undirected processes to explain the results of the aforementinoned studies seems very plausible. It may even explain why domestics cats will revert to their feral configuration and colors within a few generations and this process is almost certianly not related to natural selection demonstrates that there may be more examples of change by suggestion or needs experienced by the previous generation.
    Last edited by Valiant Champion; March 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM.

  19. #19
    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    5,228

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Champion View Post
    Your response contradicts Occams razor.
    No, it does not. Occam's Razor means that you may not add extra entities without necessity. Intelligent Design adds extra necessities to what otherwise is a strictly natural process with no special entities.

    You don't seem to understand what Occam's Razor means.
    For one we know that the DNA strand is form of data storage system. Arranged in a fashion where it gives directions on how an organisms parts are to be organized, their size and composition. Therefore it is a program which in computer programs would mean it is a simple form of AI. Although not artificial but a natural intelligence.
    No, you jumped from the fact that DNA contains information (which is true, in an anthropomorphised way) to the idea that this points to natural intelligence. That's a subtle attempt at changing the vocabulary, and I won't let you do it.
    which brings into bearing as to how life began. Simple question of course right?
    No, actually it doesn't. You're shifting the discussion to abiogenesis, which is not what this thread is about. All evolution takes care to explain is how simple organisms (from the point of self-replicating polymers) become organisms complex enough to harbor DNA.



    BEN STEIN?! YOU'RE CITING BEN STEIN AS A SOURCE??!

    I seriously hope you're not getting any information from that guy, because he has about as much credibility discussing evolutionairy biology as a burgerflipper has discussing celebral aneurysms.

    And as for Michael Behe, his latest book (which you might have missed; it was hilarious to see how quickly the creationist rats jumped from his ship) accepts evolution almost in its entiriety.
    Than adding to this programs data by ancestor suggestion over undirected processes to explain the results of the aforementinoned studies seems very plausible. It may even explain why domestics cats will revert to their feral configuration and colors within a few generations and this process is almost certianly not related to natural selection demonstrates that there may be more examples of change by suggestion or needs experienced by the previous generation.
    That could be, and that would mean that practically everything we know about biology, genetics and molecular chemistry is wrong.
    Or it is simply the case that the study above details a mechanism that can exist in conjunction with and is acted upon by natural selection.
    The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath
    --- Mark 2:27

    Atheism is simply a way of clearing the space for better conservations.
    --- Sam Harris

  20. #20
    Valiant Champion's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    5,402

    Default Re: Prepare to rethink evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbuster View Post
    No, it does not. Occam's Razor means that you may not add extra entities without necessity. Intelligent Design adds extra necessities to what otherwise is a strictly natural process with no special entities.

    You don't seem to understand what Occam's Razor means.

    No, you jumped from the fact that DNA contains information (which is true, in an anthropomorphised way) to the idea that this points to natural intelligence. That's a subtle attempt at changing the vocabulary, and I won't let you do it.

    No, actually it doesn't. You're shifting the discussion to abiogenesis, which is not what this thread is about. All evolution takes care to explain is how simple organisms (from the point of self-replicating polymers) become organisms complex enough to harbor DNA.


    BEN STEIN?! YOU'RE CITING BEN STEIN AS A SOURCE??!

    I seriously hope you're not getting any information from that guy, because he has about as much credibility discussing evolutionairy biology as a burgerflipper has discussing celebral aneurysms.

    And as for Michael Behe, his latest book (which you might have missed; it was hilarious to see how quickly the creationist rats jumped from his ship) accepts evolution almost in its entiriety.

    That could be, and that would mean that practically everything we know about biology, genetics and molecular chemistry is wrong.
    Or it is simply the case that the study above details a mechanism that can exist in conjunction with and is acted upon by natural selection.
    I wasnt using Ben Stein as the source. I was using Richard Dawkins spoken idea about the origin of life. I could not find a shorter version of the video at the time with just the segment where he talked about it specifically. It was in his own words.

    We are talking about a man who is very good at winning arguments. No one twisted his arm into suggesting Panspermia and admitting that we do not know how life began. For Dawkins credit he has a record of being Frank and honest on his stance.

    But you are right. Perhaps it is off topic.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •