AI settings. Mod is tested at VH/VH

[Dago Red]

We all know veterans and machos of TW games and indeed mods, play on VH/VH.... anything less is embarrassing. Until now with ETW.

I learned from the APE:TI devs that increasing the settings above normal only gives the Ai hidden, and irrational bonuses. So instead of creating their mod for Vh/VH like everyone used to, they create a challenging mod for normal settings.

You see, if you play on VH battle for example, it's not that the AI gets smarter, uses better tactics, charges at the right time or tries to flank you more creatively... they just get huge stat bumps. It is such that a poor conscript unit with no training, will outshoot a well drilled line infantry unit every time. They have better morale, accuracy, melee, and are better drilled soldiers in their stats. That's just stupid, obviously. Units wearing leathers may have defensive values of those wearing chainmail... that's also just stupid.

SO instead of basing everything on VH/VH, they managed to make a very challenging game at the N/N (M/M) settings (with some hard script work settings). Then, IF you want to give the AI cheats, and make it absurdly hard, you can always go up to H/H or higher.

My question is, did this battlefield stat cheat come into play with ETW, or are the AI units getting hidden stat bonuses in MTW2 and Broken Crescent on higher settings to?

[spartan117]

Medieval 2 total war difficulty settings do not alter unit stats although this practice was done in rome total war but not MTW2, I dont know about empire total war. As I recall the increases in RTW were applied to the defensive skill/offensive attack categories not armor. But I cant be certain.

I think there are morale increases though, I have since forgotten and have only recently starting playing MTW2 again after some time.

[Dago Red]

Even if they are in MTW, Broken Crescent may be able to mod them out, I don't know....

But modders for ETW can't change the hidden bonuses to units - so many are developing their mods for the "normal" settings. it doesn't make the game any easier, in fact APE:TI is extremely challenging but fairly so without lame hidden cheats for the AI.

[Iguanaonastick]

I've found that in BC custom battles at least equal units fighting on very hard tend to see the player's side losing (If the player doesn't do things like withdrawing and re-charging or altering formation) but on medium sees the player's side win fairly easily.

I don't really understand why the player side wins on medium. It might just be normal statistical variation as I haven't tested more than four times or so, and the test results alternated between average and clear victories. Chance probably plays a decent role, as does the time a general dies.

I do not know if these results also hold true in campaign battles, some effects apparently are different there and I've heard contradictory reports.

The AI advantage on very hard, if there is one, appears to be fairly small. The battles are closely fought with many casualties on each side. It certainly is nothing like Rome Total War or Medieval 1 where on very hard your units get slaughtered even by inferior troops.

Edit: It's possible that the higher difficulty level gives the AI units a hidden XP bonus? That would explain higher morale and very slightly higher stats, whilst in Rome it would have resulted in vastly better stats. This is speculation though and vague memories of vague rumours.

[C.Maximus]

I always had a hard time in the vanilla MTW 2 on VH VH because my allies contantly betrayed me and I am normally Germany in that game so I would be getting attack by every catholic nation in the game even the ally i married my princess off to... just attacked me with 2 full stacks for no reason... Still i would win the battles but when a full stack of my allies betrays me and then attacks a city with a few units, there is no winning... this hasnt happened to me to that extent with BC but i started my first campagin just H/VH like ... years ago.. but now in VH/VH sometimes i am betrayed for no reason by a close ally...


ITs like the harder the difficulty the less honor the ai has lol

[ERE_Friend]

I never knew that that's why Rome is so rediculus. I stopped playing it because of how cheap it was. Is playing Rome on medium still challenging and worth it?

[Iguanaonastick]

Edit: Re: Cannabis
That is true. On harder Campaign difficulty the AI will hate the player no matter what and will attack him a -lot-. I prefer Hard rather than Very Hard difficulty for that reason.

Re:Kschneides
Vanilla, I'd say no. Europa Barbarorum, definitely. :-) Though there's bound to be other good mods out there too, EB is the one I've played a lot.

[Lupu]

I'm pretty sure VH difficulty increases the enemy's morale.

[spartan117]

It is common that mod creators attempt to balance for certain difficulty settings. The effects of campaign difficulty settings varies by mod and can easily be changed. Things like increasing hostility toward the user, script extra cash for factions, etc.. are often changed.

Unit stats like defense skill and offensive attack are not affected by difficulty settings however increases in morale and stamina are affected.

Rome Total War settings increased attack, defense, missile strength from what I remember. I cant speak about Empire total war, MTW1, and Shogun.

I've found that in BC custom battles at least equal units fighting on very hard tend to see the player's side losing (If the player doesn't do things like withdrawing and re-charging or altering formation) but on medium sees the player's side win fairly easily.

I don't really understand why the player side wins on medium. It might just be normal statistical variation as I haven't tested more than four times or so, and the test results alternated between average and clear victories. Chance probably plays a decent role, as does the time a general dies.

I do not know if these results also hold true in campaign battles, some effects apparently are different there and I've heard contradictory reports.

The AI advantage on very hard, if there is one, appears to be fairly small. The battles are closely fought with many casualties on each side. It certainly is nothing like Rome Total War or Medieval 1 where on very hard your units get slaughtered even by inferior troops.

Edit: It's possible that the higher difficulty level gives the AI units a hidden XP bonus? That would explain higher morale and very slightly higher stats, whilst in Rome it would have resulted in vastly better stats. This is speculation though and vague memories of vague rumours.

Dont base your analysis of units just off of the attributes given in the unit info. Things like attack delays, charge range, and mass among other things are quite important to say the least. You should look into the EDU for more detailed information. Mod developers often go to great lengths to balance units and combat. Nearly a year ago, I began to appreciate the extensive amount of values that are moddable after some modding of my own. Although I mostly just compiled a bunch of mods and made aesthetic , script, historic events, music, character traits and some other changes.

Your best bet in understanding the intricacies and values is by visiting the mod workshop.

[Iguanaonastick]

I wasn't comparing stats, I was running tests in-game. Fights between identical units, so the stats wouldn't matter anyway. What I meant with "increased stats" was that the AI was doing better at higher difficulty, so -some- number must have increased somewhere.

Increased stamina might explain why AI units perform better at higher difficulty levels. I admittedly don't really know just what the impact of stamina is, except that low stamina lowers morale. If low stamina lowers attack values it'd explain the slight edge AI units seem to have.

[Dago Red]

Well, like I was saying with APE:TI - the ETW mod, they said the stat increases are big, and iirc across the board.

No one wants to see poor conscripts with matchlocks outshooting line infantry in reload, accuracy and drill, then charging them and annihilating them without even the benefit of bayonette, let alone proper training. Or peasants with pitchforks in rags taking out trained men at arms with helms and chain mail.

I hope that's not the case with MTW2 and Broken Crescent but I can always just play on medium.

[Iguanaonastick]

That is definitely not the case in Medieval 2. On very hard unit settings, a player controlled unit of militia fighting an AI controlled unit of militia seems to be at a very slight disadvantage and will probably lose, albeit just, in a one-on-one fight.

But a player-controlled unit of professional troops will massacre the levies, difficulty or no.

And a player controlled army of a few levy units will almost certainly still beat an AI controlled army of a few levy units due to superior tactics.

I've played Medieval 2 total war on very difficult for years without any trouble, whereas in Rome Total War (Or Empire, I assume) people who did this needed to use all kinds of strange tactics and exploit AI weaknesses to stand a chance. This is not the case in Medieval 2. On very difficult the playing field is, if not quite level, fair enough.

[Jan III Sobieski]

When I play at VH the enemy gets killed and i have fewer casualties

[Vardan the Great]

Will be some setting which will show real difficulty.

[YoungGrognard]

Note - this is regarding vanilla difficulty bonuses (I'm not sure what mods do with it)

According to frogbeastegg's guide to RTW (she quotes from C.A. developer), on Normal battle difficulty, the units have equal stats. On Hard, the AI gets +4 bonus to attack and/or defence. On Very Hard, the AI's bonus goes up to +7. So, it's pretty much a very simple cheat in favour of the A.I. to make their units stronger.

RTW with VH is extremely difficult to win battles, in my experience. I only play on medium or hard, depending on how much of a challenge I feel like (I'm not the most hardcore player and I prefer historical realism than challenge).

And when M2TW came out, I did research to find out what the battle difficulties meant for M2TW. It's not gospel, but from what all my reading that I did, this is what I found. The battle difficulty setting in M2TW affects morale and maybe stamina, but not attack and defence as in RTW. If you play on anything below Very Hard battle difficulty, then actually the A.I. is handicapped and your units receive more of a morale/stamina bonus than the A.I! For this reason, in M2TW I always play on very-hard battle difficulty. I have found that this feels like a fair and realistic battle against the AI (they may receive some hidden bonus but I have never noticed it). The AI may implement some more advanced behaviours but that is only speculation on my part. Your high quality soldiers will beat their low quality soldiers and everything feels right - I always recommend VH battle difficulty in M2TW and it feels realistic. As for campaign difficulty I don't like VH because the diplomacy is so harsh against you. I recommend normal or hard for campaign.

[Dago Red]

And when M2TW came out, I did research to find out what the battle difficulties meant for M2TW. It's not gospel, but from what all my reading that I did, this is what I found. The battle difficulty setting in M2TW affects morale and maybe stamina, but not attack and defence as in RTW. If you play on anything below Very Hard battle difficulty, then actually the A.I. is handicapped and your units receive more of a morale/stamina bonus than the A.I! For this reason, in M2TW I always play on very-hard battle difficulty.

Interesting stuff, thanks. Vanilla difficulty settings are so lazy aren't they? Just poor work by CA.

As for BC, I am certain this vanilla observation: "If you play on anything below Very Hard battle difficulty, then actually the A.I. is handicapped and your units receive more of a morale/stamina bonus than the A.I!" does not apply.

I have been playing on Hard, and notice a serious stamina deficit against my troops. The AI runs all over and keeps fighting, while mine tire quickly. During a siege or any other long battle, my first troops in will almost always end up exhausted, before I can pull them out - sometimes it seems to happen with them just standing there on the wall!

I ran a unit of Thaqlah up to the walls with ladders, and they were tired by the time they got to the top... I'm glad there are real and noticeable effects like these but I thought that was just a little much - afterall they pause at the base of the walls and climb up slowly.

[lampros69]

Interesting stuff, thanks. Vanilla difficulty settings are so lazy aren't they? Just poor work by CA.

As for BC, I am certain this vanilla observation: "If you play on anything below Very Hard battle difficulty, then actually the A.I. is handicapped and your units receive more of a morale/stamina bonus than the A.I!" does not apply.

I have been playing on Hard, and notice a serious stamina deficit against my troops. The AI runs all over and keeps fighting, while mine tire quickly. During a siege or any other long battle, my first troops in will almost always end up exhausted, before I can pull them out - sometimes it seems to happen with them just standing there on the wall!

I ran a unit of Thaqlah up to the walls with ladders, and they were tired by the time they got to the top... I'm glad there are real and noticeable effects like these but I thought that was just a little much - afterall they pause at the base of the walls and climb up slowly.

I think that's a siege lag issue, not stamina functioning as intended. I've had this problem before I fine-tuned my computer a bit - and it improved dramatically.

[Ryousan]

I have noticed that even in normal/medium difficulty, the AI gets some experience bonuses when producing it`s units(+4 Exp) Im currently running an Armenian campaign and I have a hard time finding a stack that isn`t filled with silver level units.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

The original modders probably decided to give the AI units an experience buff at the campaign level. It is the same in all levels (easy to very hard) and, as far as I know, the experience level of AI units cannot be changed so that they get this bonus only on very hard. In other words, if city barracks in a given settlement produced units for the human player with one level of experience (a single copper chevron), the AI will get out of the same barracks units with a single silver chevron, if there is a +3 buff. This will be the case at all campaign levels (easy to vh).

Maybe that's cheating. On the other hand, human players have a brain.

That is not related to the question in the OP. That person was asking if the AI gets bonuses at the normal difficulty level for battles. Oddly in his test he found out that it did not, so there was no obvious reason for this thread.