Does XC need a Roman Rebel faction ?

[Shadow_LT]

In my opinion, Roman rebels are quite useless(they die around 270 BC) and a proper faction should replace them in XC non-senate version(In XC senate they were replaced by Carthaginian senate).

I would like to see Epirus. Epirus was a regional power back then and a real Epirus faction would give player a chance to rewrite history. Also Epirus would have proper body guards and phalangites from the campaign start.

Pergamon would be my second choice, but they weren't a power in 280 BC and they are well represented by the GCS provincial campaign.

[Mango]

I also think that RR should be removed from xc. I'm not sure about which faction should replace the RR. I chose "other" because Pergamon as said "well represented by the GCS provincial campaign".

Also Epirus would be placed into a crowded area. I feel that they would be wiped out within 30 turns. If they go to war with GCS and Macedon then they don't stand a chance. If the romans decide to go to war with Epirus then they will be wiped out earlier.

I would recommend another faction but i cant think of one right now. Ill come back later and give my proposal.

[Shadow Dragon]

I agree that they should get rid of the Roman rebels. As for their replacements, there's a few options. Epirus would be an interesting chose. Also letting Syracuse be in the imperial campaign would be nice. They would probably last longer than the rebels. Also the British-Celts, Numidia and India would make go choices.

[CaesarVincens]

Keep in mind that if any replacement were to happen, it would not be for a while. We already have the major changes for Extended Cultures 4 mapped out.

[Spartan 666]

No, I think a rebel faction (as all rebel factions) is useless. It is better to use a faction slot for a "real" faction.

[Feldmarschal Rommel]

I also agree that the rebels should be replaced with something else I voted Epirus but I would also like to see India

[LucretiusTC]

As we know a Roman Rebel Faction was originally needed for loyalty and a Roman Civil War campaign, and I don’t mind if there are some non-playable Factions that are need to improve the general balance in the game. Furthermore there are already available several provincial campaigns for smaller Greek Factions (Pergamon, Epeiros, Syracuse, Massalia, Cyrenaica, Bosporan Kingdom), and I have enjoyed those options when I can start a new campaign and fight against different enemies from the very beginning of the game.

So I think we should not create just another Greek Faction because those provincial campaigns are covering quite well those game options. Besides for instance Epirus as an AI Faction would not probably survive much longer that the current Roman Rebels in southern Italy and Sicily.

Maybe there could be another Celtic provincial campaign that starts in British Isles like there is a Galatian campaign that starts north from Macedonia. I know that some players would like to see the Indian Faction but one problem that comes to my mind is that in this game India is located at the edge of world and includes only north-western part of that subcontinent.

If there are any future plans to develop or replace the Roman Rebels, I have two favourite options. In the first plan the Roman Rebels would have a bigger role as non-playable Faction under the working title "Italo-Illyrian Rebels" and then they would at least survive a little longer in this game: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=226226

The second and more ambitious plan would be a new Illyrian Faction that could start with 3 settlements. Those Illyrians had interesting historical contacts with Greeks from south, Thracians from east, and Celts from north. Besides Illyria locates in a good position on the map and they were also known as notorious pirates among the Romans and Greeks.

Here is some further information.

Map about Illyrian tribes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Illyrians.jpg

Illyrian Pantheon (created for XGM temple system)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120148&page=30

Article about Illyrian Warfare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_warfare

Illyricum:
http://www.unrv.com/provinces/illyricum.php

"After the fall of Alexander and the decline of Greek power during the 3rd century BC, the Illyrians turned their fortunes to piracy. Conducting their raids from the secluded harbours of the coast, they ravaged the shores of Italy and Greece and preyed on the commerce of the Adriatic. In response to calls for help from Greece, Rome demanded a cessation of the piracy, but the Illyrians rejected. This rejection led to two successive defeats in the Roman wars of 229 and 219 BCE, the Illyrians would submit.

Illyria, however, remained a powerful kingdom with its capital at Skodra, until 180 BCE, when the Dalmatians declared themselves independent of king Gentius. So the history of Dalmatia began when the tribe from which the country derives its name declared itself independent of Gentius, the Illyrian king, and established a republic. After the Dalmatians had split from the kingdom, the Romans conquered Gentius and established (168-167 BCE) one of the earliest Roman colonies as Illyricum.

In 156 BCE the Dalmatians were for the first time attacked by a Roman army and compelled to pay tribute. They, however, resisted formal surrender and Roman control until the early part of the first century CE. They joined in an attempt with the Pannonians and to liberate their territories from Roman occupation in 6 CE and they were not finally subdued until 9 CE by Augustus and Tiberius. Known to be aggressive people in their early relations to Rome, they were eager and readily recruited into the Roman Legions. Illyricum eventually grew into one of the leading recruiting grounds for the Roman armies."

http://www.illyrians.org/illyriandefense.html

"The Illyrian military consisted mostly of infantrymen and although it has been argued that the Illyrian infantry was never numerous, it is important to note that in 280 BC King Monunius offered the king of Macedon 20,000 troops to defend his kingdom from a Celtic invasion. It is hardly conceivable that King Monunius would have risked the defence of his kingdom, by the offer of 20,000 troops, if he had not a large army.

Through archaeology, it is known that the Illyrians used many weapons and excavations have produced swords, javelins, battle-axes, bows and arrows as well as battle knives. When it came to defences, the Illyrian military equipped itself with wooded and leather shields that were embossed with metal. Their defences also included breastplates, helmets and leg protection, but those were probably reserved for the military elite.

It is also important to note that the geographical location of Illyria, deeply wooded and mountainous, made them difficult to conquer. However, because they could be easily surprised or engage in battles hastily the Illyrians often fled there positions. Thucydides wrote that fight or flight was 'equally honourable' for them."

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Luc.

[Mango]

I think that the Illyrian faction seems to be a good choice. My vote is for the Illyrian faction.

I was orginally thinking of a british faction until I saw the provincal campaign fo it.

[Shadow_LT]

It seems that Epirus has won ! Hope that this faction will be in XC in the near future

[Zarax]

Not to trump on your parade Shadow but 10 votes are hardly something that would push the level of changes needed, especially as you would kill off XC-senate.

[Shadow_LT]

I don't want to kill senate, I want to remove RR. That's why I made this poll. And XC community isn't big, so 10 votes is a lot in this case. Also, I don't expect for it to happen anytime soon, but I do hope, if RL doesn't screw XC dev. team up, we could have Epirus in mid-late autumn.

[Zarax]

I don't want to kill senate, I want to remove RR. That's why I made this poll. And XC community isn't big, so 10 votes is a lot in this case. Also, I don't expect for it to happen anytime soon, but I do hope, if RL doesn't screw XC dev. team up, we could have Epirus in mid-late autumn.

Senate and RR use the same faction slot and to enable just that it requires the adaptation of over 20 different files and lots of extra testing time.
This without taking into account models and skins needed for a faction that would end up basically as a macedon clone roster wise.
Even if the team agrees to consider that, with 2 full time coders and part time availability on every other skill it would take long time.

And it would of course end up killing senate as as easily as one poll can be made asking for a faction replacing roman rebels another one can ask for epirus to replace senate as it's playable in non-senate campaign.

Honestly resource-wise the current setup gives you pretty much all that is needed: an exciting start facing pyrrhus as rome or carthage and a good provincial campaign where you can emulate epirus decently.
As making Sarmatia is taking over 8 months (hopefully it will be completed this or next weekend) and the current playable factions are still in need of lots of work even in the best case this would take no less than 18 months to happen. If manpower allows it.

[Spartan 666]

I voted for Pergamon, because Epirus would be a short-term state between Rome and Macedon. Pergamon would be a wiser choice because it would counter the Seleucids in Asia Minor, and it's a state that lasted until 160sBC.

[Diomede]

I've no issue with Roman Rebels staying in the game tbh, but wouldn't mind seeing TEK become an Indian faction. It'd make the conflict between TSE and her rebellious factions more interesting, and provide an active faction capable of causing TSE harm if neither rebels.

[TM Is Back]

It is ridiculous to remove the Roman Rebels. They are a key stone in XC. In my opinion, just voting to remove them is not enough. As Zarax stated, and as we all know, modding is not an easy thing to do. If you want to change things, I'd suggest you join the team and help them out.

+, just my opinion about Epirus and Pergamum. Why would you need them? Epirus is already strongly represented with the Independent Greeks. And Pargamum is also represented by them. Why would you need an playable Epirus? They are almost completely the same as Macedon. And why Pergamum? A city state to fight in Asia-Minor? No.

Plus, IIRC they are already in provincial campaigns.

[Shadow_LT]

OK, I understand that Epirus faction requires too much resources and it won't be in XC, but how about improving current Epirus provincial campaign ? Giving them ability to recruit phalangites from the start, some sort of Epirote AoR unit/units, Epidamnos as a third city(because you start with minus -25000 per turn).
Also, why greek levy and elite phalangites are better than macedonian ones ?

[TM Is Back]

OK, I understand that Epirus faction requires too much resources and it won't be in XC, but how about improving current Epirus provincial campaign ? Giving them ability to recruit phalangites from the start, some sort of Epirote AoR unit/units, Epidamnos as a third city(because you start with minus -25000 per turn).
Also, why greek levy and elite phalangites are better than macedonian ones ?

Eh.... maintaining a large army as Pyrhus his army is not an easy thing. Army's cost a lot of money. That is now the case, that was the case in the 17e century, and also in the ancient time. So that minus 25000 is just right to show how much Pyrhus was asking of his kingdom.

[Zarax]

Greek levy phalangites should be exactly the same as mak ones, the elite ones have more armour in their skin so it's reflected in their stats (although honestly that unit presence is debatable).

As for the provincial campaign, it's in need of love like all the other ones.
In truth, we wouldn't mind a dedicated coder to maintain and optimize those campaigns as all our current resources are devoted elsewhere (like hunting for the alx.exe CTD bug and implementing Sarmatia in place of Scythia).

On the good side, me and Suppanut are devising a way to give the epeirotes a bit more flavour through the colony system but it will take a few more builds to be fleshed out.

[Shadow_LT]

Greek levies have +1 pike attack, +2 def.skill, +3 morale and cost 50 less per turn and to recruit.

So does XC team has any plans for RR or they will stay as minor nuisance in Italy ?

[Zarax]

Arggh, another inconsistency to check, thanks for spotting it.

There is no plan about them ATM and the only change that could be introduced over there relatively quickly would be making them the Roman Senate but I suspect not many would like the return of such a faction.