Nationalistic empathy

[Carpathian Wolf]

Nationalism. The word has come to mean something ugly. To some people nationalism is playing favorites to your country at the expense of others. To me this is an incorrect definition. Nationalism is respecting the distinctions and differences of people that makes us all unique. I want to discuss today the notion of nationalistic empathy. That is to say that you feel a certain draw, a respect, a reverence of another nation other than your own. We've seen this in history for example with the French during Napoleon's time regarding the Danubian principalities. Or the Russian nationalistic empathy toward the southern slavs. What nation do you feel nationalistic empathy other than your own?

Personally I feel nationalistic empathy for several groups such as the Vietnamese. After the various wars in the past 100 or so years in their country they managed to rebuild each time and without a spiteful spirit. I've heard even American GIs say that the Vietnamese today are surprisingly forgiving and friendly. Another group i'd have to bring up would also be the Japanese. And although there is an ugly xenophobic extremist side to certain Japanese groups, I still have to respect their perseverance throughout history.

I think true nationalism doesn't mean placing your culture or nation above other's but simply understanding the distinction. This past summer I saw Tatars in Romania on the black seat coast. They had mosques, spoke their language etc. And I looked at these people and I said that I did not want them to become Romanized. I think it's good to speak the language of the country but at the end of the day I hope that back home they still speak their Tatar language and keep their customs because it is through their nationalism and love of their culture that we can make distinction between our own and respect both ours and theirs. That is the true meaning of nationalism.

So share your examples, maybe you respect Germany's ability to come back as a strong country after it was split between east and west. Maybe you respect Irish nationalism and their identity which they've maintained on both sides of the Irish border. etc

[El Brujo]

Nationalism makes nations possible. Taken to an extreme it is very dangerous, but so is anything else. Europeans especially tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater with regards to nationalism, not realizing that it doesn't always have to be take to WWI era levels.

[Arch-hereticK]

The earth is round, nationalism, it's more trouble than it's worth.

[konny]

Europeans especially tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater with regards to nationalism, not realizing that it doesn't always have to be take to WWI era levels.

Given the experinces of the 20th Century, nationalism is considered an outdated political concept in (most of) Western Europe. The problem is of course with definition or drawing bounderaries.

For example, (notorious hysterical) leftists declare people waving national colors on international football matches as "dangerous signs of growing nationalism", ignoring that the same people wave the banners of their towns on every Saturday football match, despite (and indifferent to) the opposing side being members of the same nation.

[bushbush]

Jews. No people get more mistreatment in history than them. And they are still fighting (though I don't agree with the way they fight sometimes).

[Dodge]

Jews. No people get more mistreatment in history than them. And they are still fighting (though I don't agree with the way they fight sometimes).

They milk it though. Especially the non-israeli jews.

[bushbush]

but i find certain people being so fake and hypocrital though. The same person is bla bla blaing on about RESPECT about other cultures. But that particular person is bashing others in another medium.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Twycross (certain forum member here)

Bashing hungarians:
"nagy nagy say to your steppe pony."
"Get out of here bozgor"


Bashing Crotians:
"You'll get yours Ustase scum."

Bashing albanians:
"yea go hold hands with those gypsy turk albos. They're about as smart as you are."

"you're a dirty albanian. I saw two albanians yesterday, I could have sworn they were gypsies but then I saw on their shirts they wore an albanian flag. Man they were ugly."

-------

that's respect? that sounds like nationalism at its best.

[hellheaven1987]

Na, Nationalism was a 17th Century product that was necessaried to replace the influence of religion.

[Londinium]

Na, Nationalism was a 17th Century product that was necessaried to replace the influence of religion.

Not really nationalism was a direct result of enlightenment ideas and the need to create strong governments ruling over cohesive homogenous societies which liberalism called for. It's hard to adopt the principles of universalism when you many wildly varying minorities within your nation state. It also developed partly as a result of political philosopher's obssession with Ancient Greece where most states were harmonious homogenous states with no minorities. It's important to seperate nationalism from patriotism as they are quite different things, although patriotism forms an essential part of nationalism.

As for what forms of nationalism I have sympathy for, mainly the Jews/Israel and the Poles. Both have suffered a lot in their history and fought hard to gain what they have now.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Not really nationalism was a direct result of enlightenment ideas and the need to create strong governments ruling over cohesive homogenous societies which liberalism called for. It's hard to adopt the principles of universalism when you many wildly varying minorities within your nation state. It also developed partly as a result of political philosopher's obssession with Ancient Greece where most states were harmonious homogenous states with no minorities. It's important to seperate nationalism from patriotism as they are quite different things, although patriotism forms an essential part of nationalism.

As for what forms of nationalism I have sympathy for, mainly the Jews/Israel and the Poles. Both have suffered a lot in their history and fought hard to gain what they have now.

I think that's a myth. I think nationalism always existed. Greeks knew they were Greeks, as did Persians and so on and so forth. The idea that countries should be centered around a national identity, that is what was new.

I don't think it's fair to use the term nationalism as if it were the term "ultra-nationalism" which are two different things.

[Londinium]

I think that's a myth. I think nationalism always existed. Greeks knew they were Greeks, as did Persians and so on and so forth. The idea that countries should be centered around a national identity, that is what was new.

I don't think it's fair to use the term nationalism as if it were the term "ultra-nationalism" which are two different things.

It's not a myth, it's the definition of nationalism in political theory. You're using nationalism as a cognate for patriotism which isn't right. Nationalism in it's political form is 'ultra-nationalism' namely the belief that a culture/race is superior to others and has a right to govern itself. This runs into all sorts of problems as how do you define a 'nation'? is it based upon language, race, the area of the world you live in or a shared culture? Patriotism forms a part of Nationalism but it also exists on it's own in the mild form of pride in a nation most people have, which isn't nationalism.

Furthermore where do you end the deliniation, could you suggest that ginger people are in fact a nation due to their shared hair colour and that ginger people should indeed be able to form their own nation and be able to rule themselves to avoid discrimination. It's also not really an ideology as it's not universal, a Serbian nationalist does not support or even recognise the qualities of a Bosnian nationalist or a Palestinian nationalist with an Israeli nationalist.

[Erebus Pasha]

but i find certain people being so fake and hypocrital though. The same person is bla bla blaing on about RESPECT about other cultures. But that particular person is bashing others in another medium.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Twycross (certain forum member here)

Bashing hungarians:
"nagy nagy say to your steppe pony."
"Get out of here bozgor"


Bashing Crotians:
"You'll get yours Ustase scum."

Bashing albanians:
"yea go hold hands with those gypsy turk albos. They're about as smart as you are."

"you're a dirty albanian. I saw two albanians yesterday, I could have sworn they were gypsies but then I saw on their shirts they wore an albanian flag. Man they were ugly."

-------

that's respect? that sounds like nationalism at its best.

By Balkan standards these comments seem quite polite.

[thursgun]

There is a slight difference with patriotism. According to oxford english dictionary:

nationalism


• noun 1 patriotic feeling, often to an excessive degree. 2 advocacy of political independence for a particular country.



I hate when it all comes down to semantics, but wikipedia tends to confirm this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism).

[Stavroforos]

Nationalism is pretty annoying. As a Greek, I hate having to talk with nationalists because not only are they retarded when it comes to present-day Greece, but they also manage to up our history more than we already do.

I don't have much respect for any nationalists generally either. I respect some nations and their history of resistance and not giving up, but still taking it a nationalist level is too much. I'd say if there was one country which I'd be most lax on, it would probably be France.

[thursgun]

Nationalism is pretty annoying. As a Greek, I hate having to talk with nationalists because not only are they retarded when it comes to present-day Greece, but they also manage to up our history more than we already do.

I don't have much respect for any nationalists generally either. I respect some nations and their history of resistance and not giving up, but still taking it a nationalist level is too much. I'd say if there was one country which I'd be most lax on, it would probably be France.

I've heard the french are the most nationalist bigots in Europe.

[Manco]

I've heard the french are the most nationalist bigots in Europe.

Not in my experience. Most Eastern Europeans I've met have been terribly nationalist, understandable due to their relatively recent past as communist satellites.

In Western Europe i've personally had bad experiences with the Portuguese, but that was probably more bad luck than the Portuguese as a whole being more nationalistic.

[CiviC]

Not in my experience. Most Eastern Europeans I've met have been terribly nationalist, understandable due to their relatively recent past as communist satellites.

NO it has to do withe Eastern Europe being dominated untill recently mainly by Empires instead of free nation : Ottomans, Habsburgs, Russians and Germans, all suffocated the freedom of Eastern European nations and also played many small nations one against eachother.

Nationalism made Empires obsolete and from this point of view was a great progress. Nationalism created lots of war too, but also imperialism did that, or fascism, or comunism, or capitalism, or religion, in fact I don't think more people died in nationalistic wars then in religion wars. So to say "nationalism creates hatered and without it we will have a better world" is just wrong : hatered and wars are created by many more things then nationalism, if you eliminate nationalism then some other kind of ideology will take place like religious fundamentalism, etc.

[Manco]

NO it has to do withe Eastern Europe being dominated untill recently mainly by Empires instead of free nation : Ottomans, Habsburgs, Russians and Germans, all suffocated the freedom of Eastern European nations and also played many small nations one against eachother.

Isn't that just what I said?
The USSR was simply the last in line

[Erebus Pasha]

NO it has to do withe Eastern Europe being dominated untill recently mainly by Empires instead of free nation : Ottomans, Habsburgs, Russians and Germans, all suffocated the freedom of Eastern European nations and also played many small nations one against eachother.

Nationalism made Empires obsolete and from this point of view was a great progress. Nationalism created lots of war too, but also imperialism did that, or fascism, or comunism, or capitalism, or religion, in fact I don't think more people died in nationalistic wars then in religion wars. So to say "nationalism creates hatered and without it we will have a better world" is just wrong : hatered and wars are created by many more things then nationalism, if you eliminate nationalism then some other kind of ideology will take place like religious fundamentalism, etc.

Considering what has happened in the Balkans ever since nationalism started to take hold in the region over 200 years ago, I would be inclined to disagree that progress has been made.

[clone]

Nationalism is pretty annoying. As a Greek, I hate having to talk with nationalists because not only are they retarded when it comes to present-day Greece, but they also manage to up our history more than we already do.

I don't have much respect for any nationalists generally either. I respect some nations and their history of resistance and not giving up, but still taking it a nationalist level is too much. I'd say if there was one country which I'd be most lax on, it would probably be France.

not all nationalist are the same.for me is the worst country