EU deadlocked over Turkish entry

[Garbarsardar]

It is impressive that countries with traditionally problematic relation with Turkey (Greece), have more acceptance then countries with a large muslim minority, which is not only Turkish. At the same time UK with a large non predominently Turkish muslim minority is of the countries that most favour Turkey's entry.

So is it simply a religion/culture issue or things are slightly more complicated?

The following is the (BBC) country profiles in relation to the Turkish bid:

GERMANY: Opinion polls say up to three-quarters of the population oppose Turkish membership. Of the two largest political parties, the Social Democrats (SPD) say they want a "modern Turkey in the EU"; the Christian Democrats (CDU) oppose membership - proposing instead a "privileged partnership". Angela Merkel - the CDU candidate for chancellor - has appealed to EU leaders not to "encourage" Turkey.

FRANCE: Has the largest percentage of Muslims (7%) in the EU. Officially backs Turkey's membership bid. But Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin says Turkey must first recognise Cyprus. However, Nicolas Sarkozy - leader of the ruling UMP party and likely future presidential candidate - is opposed. Only 20% of public opinion says Yes to Turkey joining. A leading political pundit, Guillaume Parmentier, says: "The Turkish elite has been European for centuries; but the vast democratic expansion of Turkey involves Anatolian peasants, who are not European by culture, tradition or habit". The French have been promised a referendum after the conclusion of negotiations.

AUSTRIA: Opinion polls show 75% of 15-24 year-olds opposed to Turkish membership; rising to 82% among people over 55. This is the highest No rating in the EU.

NETHERLANDS: Has the EU's second largest Muslim population in terms of percentage (6%) after France - and is struggling to cope with the issues of religion, immigration and integration - particularly after the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh. Remains strongly divided over Turkey.

BRITAIN: An enthusiastic supporter of Turkish membership. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says Turkey in the EU would become "a beacon of democracy and modernity"; and a Muslim country providing "a shining example across the whole of its neighbouring region" - ie the Arab world. Turkish membership would disprove the "clash of civilisations" theory.

ITALY: Another strong supporter of Turkish membership. The government stresses historical links between Italy and the "Near East"; the need to "anchor" Turkey in the West; and the commercial opportunities offered by the Turkish market. Public opinion, while not particularly hostile, appears less enthusiastic - actual support for Turkish membership standing at below 40%.

POLAND: The largest of the 10 "new" EU members, who joined in May 2004 - with more than half of their combined population. 54% of the public support Turkish membership. Officials say Turkey would strengthen pro-American attitudes within the EU and consolidate Western influence on the approaches to the Middle East and the Caucasus. Poles also cite a history of close bilateral relations going back several hundred years.

SPAIN: A poll showed 33% opposing Turkish membership, but 42% in favour - as is the government. Back in June, following the French and Dutch rejection of the EU draft constitution, Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos suggested postponing the Turkish accession talks until a more advantageous time.

GREECE: was under Ottoman occupation for more than 400 years. Some Greeks still regard Istanbul as a "Greek" city. Another country where politicians and public opinion diverge. Opinion polls suggest only 25% of Greeks believe Turkey has a place in the European Union. The government, meanwhile, is keen to resolve bilateral tensions through Turkish integration. But it says the fate of Turkey's EU application depends, primarily, on the Turks themselves - especially where recognition of Cyprus in concerned. .

HUNGARY: was under Ottoman occupation for 150 years, in the 16th and 17th centuries. But there is little anti-Turkish feeling - around half the population supporting Turkish membership. However, like Austria, Hungary is also pressing the case of neighbouring Croatia: which, according to Foreign Minister Ferenc Somogyi, is "spectacularly further ahead" than Turkey on most accession criteria.

DENMARK: Strong public resistance to Turkish membership. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen - until recently supportive - has been heard talking of "special partnerships" as well.

SWEDEN: Strong popular resistance. However, the government sees Turkish membership in terms of "supporting Turkey's reform process and increasing contacts with Turkish society" - as well as Swedish business opportunities.

[John I Tzimisces]

"ITALY: Another strong supporter of Turkish membership. The government stresses historical links between Italy and the "Near East"; the need to "anchor" Turkey in the West; and the commercial opportunities offered by the Turkish market. Public opinion, while not particularly hostile, appears less enthusiastic - actual support for Turkish membership standing at below 40%."

Italy has a govt??? i was under the impression the last time was 44 BC

jk jk jk...

Personally, I am against their admission. Why? They aren't from Europe. Culturally, not european. Geographically sure. But then, with that arguement, most of the middle east is also legible for admission. If you admit turkey, you must also admit Iran or saudi arabia, or at least keep that an option, and heck, thats not gonna happen any time soon.
And if anyone flames me for being armenian and having said opinion, how about this: I am also not in favor of Armenia's admission, if it was ever considered. We have had no past interaction with europe proper, whatsoever, barring cilicia and the crusades.

[ShangTang]

Uh, Turkey is part of Europe. This is the European Union. Iran and Saudi Arabia are not part of Europe. Your logic fails.

[John I Tzimisces]

Uh, Turkey is part of Europe. This is the European Union. Iran and Saudi Arabia are not part of Europe. Your logic fails.

There is a difference between geographic and cultural europe. A very distinct one. If you want to take the geographic route, EVERYTHING on the eurasian landmass west of the Ural Mountain range is Europe, including Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

[Big War Bird]

Good lord say it ain't so!!!. I have thousands of dollars in Turkish stocks, and if the Eu rejects their bid. Oh my good it would a bloodbath!!!

. . . scampers off to call broker . . .

Uh, Turkey is part of Europe.

Since when?

[ShangTang]

Uh no, Saudi Arabia and the Anatolian Peninsula are not considered Europe. They are part of Asia.

[John I Tzimisces]

That depends. I have seen sources referring to the middle east as european, and as asian.

[ShangTang]

Can I see some sources and to see whether they are credible?

[John I Tzimisces]

Maybe tomorrow/later today.
Supposedly I have stats work, and I was going to use russia as an example for something somehow, but the subject of statistics has that draining effect on ones mental capacity.
In terms of genetics and all that crap, apparently middle easterners, europeans, and north africans all fall under one group as well, but since that really will never have any bearing on anyones decision, then it doesn't matter.

But if you'd ask me, the whole deal is like admitting the USA to the native american tribal nation or somesuch. Just cause they're there doesn't make them european in the same way we aren't native american.

[ShangTang]

Native Americans ARE American. As in American citizens. Please show me where this issue lies on culture rather than geographical unity?

[Garbarsardar]

Native Americans ARE American. As in American citizens. Please show me where this issue lies on culture rather than geographical unity?

I think you misinterpret what exc said. He said that Indians ARE US citizens but US cannot be part of an indian tribal union.

The question as to what defines a political and economical entity as EU is bound to be thorny. Until Turkey came up on the list there was no question as to where exactly a country belongs and which are the boundaries of Europe. A strictly geographical concept includes part of Turkey. Traditionally Istambul was the city at the borders of europe and asia. The area now occupied by Turkey was calle Asia minor, to differentiate it from the further away Asian lands, exactly as Japan was termed far east to indicate the sheer distance from the geographical center that was the west.

But is it a geography issue. Most objections arise from countries worried about Islam and what they perceive as islamic culture. Clearly Turkey has been the most secular country with an islamic population. OTOH there is a different cultural gap, which is partially only connected to religion but mainly to a history of political instability and economic troubles. But the same can be said for Bulgaria and Romania.

I'm really undecided on this one. If the criteria are the same for all then Turkey should be judged according to political and financial criteria. If an islamic country cannot be part of Europe then Turkey shouldn't be in the waiting room all this time.

[Saint-Germain]

If Turkey (Muslim) is admitted to the EU (Secular/Christian) it might be a great move bringing the two cultures together etc.

Well, you can always hope...

[Bwaho]

If Turkey (Muslim) is admitted to the EU (Secular/Christian) it might be a great move bringing the two cultures together etc.

Well, you can always hope...

I hope not, I despise religion.

[Privateer]

If Turkey (Muslim) is admitted to the EU (Secular/Christian) it might be a great move bringing the two cultures together etc.

Well, you can always hope...

We cannot get east and west germany united in peoples mind, 15 years after the fall of the Berlin wall and the border. How could anyone possibly even think of "integration" of a totally different culture like the turks ?
They share nothing with us except for a sometimes gruel and bloody history in the name of god / Allah.

From the millions of turks living already in EU member states, only a very tiny percentage is even willing to integrate themselves in the culture they choose to live in - today..., after maybe 3 generations of living outside of Turkey, still the larger part of the turkish community in european countries lives their own lives and don't want even bother with "westerners".

Imho - for cultural, historical , religious and geographic reasons - Turkey shouldn't be a EU Member but a should stay as good friend an partner - isn't that enough ?
And ... what's so great for Turkey about being a memberstate if not for subsidies ( which they want to decline, proud as they are ) ?

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against turks and visited the country several times. It's beautiful, especially around the mediterranean coastline . However, except for some tourism centers and , of course, Istanbul and maybe Ankara - it's a different world compared to the rest of Europe.

[Bwaho]

We cannot get east and west germany united in peoples mind, 15 years after the fall of the Berlin wall and the border. How could anyone possibly even think of "integration" of a totally different culture like the turks ?

Yeah, sounds like wishful thinking.

Talks will take at least ten years,I´d say we´ll have enough time to solve the problems

Many feel they don't want to "solve the problems", there will be problems in any case.

[Erik]

The EU isn't ready to expand any further,
The last expansion was premature and put the EU in a very difficult position.
The EU has to solve those problems before they can think about expanding again.
Most EU members know this, but they don't want to admit it because it means they admit their own mistakes.

And Turkey isn't ready to join either.
It can't even deal with Cyprus.
Turkey has also shown they aren't willing to negotiate their position in the EU: it's their way or nothing... it wil be nothing.

[Torment]

I say do another referendum. It will once again show how big a difference there is between the opinions of the governments and the opinions of the people they represent. I wouldn't mind keeping Turkey out of the EU...

[Homi]

The EU isn't ready to expand any further

Talks will take at least ten years,I´d say we´ll have enough time to solve the problems.

urkey has also shown they aren't willing to negotiate their position in the EU: it's their way or nothing... it wil be nothing.

Turkey has been a EU partner for 40 years already, they´ve been promised membership time and again if they would meet the entry conditions, which didnt include Cyprus. I think Turkey has a right to claim full membership instead of ´´special partnership´´

[MadKow]

For some things Turkey has European for a long time: Eurovision Song Festival and UEFA (Europe Soccer Federation), and so is Israel, but no Syria...hmm....

[nahirean]

I agree with the position that it would begin to remove the image of "Muslim vs. Christianity" - I am not from Europe, but I do beleive that it would be a good thing.