Dacians, the toughest enemy for Rome in Europe?

[bushbush]

To begin a more detailed discussion on this matter and avoid off-topic from another thread:

The Dacians were the most organized barbarians, and they were already forming alliances with Germans and Sarmatians, and even the Parthians, against the Romans. A barbarian confederacy could have been a huge threat to the Romans. By conquering Dacia the Romans managed to disrupt any nucleus of barbarian unity at least for another 300 years. The Romans would certainly face no stronger challenge from the European front until the arrival of the Huns.

Is this true? Personally i think we can make a case that the germans, not conquered unlike the dacians, were far greater threat due to their continued existence and persistent raids over the ages and finally they facilitated the destruction of Rome. Dacians were an annoying pest but easily dealt with conquest but the romans never truly managed to eliminate the german threats.

[CiviC]

In Trajan's times, Dacians were the toughest enemy for Rome in Europe. That's all. They were the only Barbarians in Europe with stone fortresses for example. If Dacian civilisation was not dealt with by Trajan they could have develop in a greater threat.

You say Germans were a greater threat, but you ignore there was no single Germans force, but "Germans" were an umbrella of many tribes many with no relation one with another. Do you even know how many Germanics were destroyed or crushed by Romans? But Germans were many tribes so you can't account them as a single threat. It's like saying Caledonii, Berbers and Sassanids were together the greatest threat for Rome.

[conon394]

Umm just no.

Annoying at best and if Rome had never decided to invade - minor annoyance at that. It is pretty hard to argue anyone but Hannibal and the Carthys as the toughest enemy Rome faced in Europe (setting aside the generalized invasions and upheavals that actually destroyed the Empire).

[CiviC]

Umm just no.

Annoying at best and if Rome had never decided to invade - minor annoyance at that. It is pretty hard to argue anyone but Hannibal and the Carthys as the toughest enemy Rome faced in Europe (setting aside the generalized invasions and upheavals that actually destroyed the Empire).

Where were the Carthaginians in 101 AD? Nobody said Dacians were the toughest enemies of Rome EVER! But in Trajan's times they were tougher then Germans.

[conon394]

Where were the Carthaginians in 101 AD? Nobody said Dacians were the toughest enemies of Rome EVER! But in Trajan's times they were tougher then Germans.

The OP did not (it asked place not time) - In any case Dacia destroyed by Rome, Germany not so much - ergo Germany more difficult.

[torongill]

The OP did not (it asked place not time) - In any case Dacia destroyed by Rome, Germany not so much - ergo Germany more difficult.

wrong conclusion. Germania had nothing to offer and it was deemed that it's not worth the trouble to invade them; After the Teutoburger Wald the only expeditions made were punitive and to recover the legionary eagles. Besides, Rhein was a natural, easily defended border.
Still, I deem the original post wrong, because before the Huns were the Goths. Battle of Adrianople, anyone?

[removeduser_487563287433]

To begin a more detailed discussion on this matter and avoid off-topic from another thread:



Is this true? Personally i think we can make a case that the germans, not conquered unlike the dacians, were far greater threat due to their continued existence and persistent raids over the ages and finally they facilitated the destruction of Rome. Dacians were an annoying pest but easily dealt with conquest but the romans never truly managed to eliminate the german threats.

No, it's not true. The Dacians never penetrated the Roman Empire like swathes of Germanic peoples, never brought Rome to near destruction like the Carthaginians or Gauls, and never launched a seriously threatening rebellion, like the Britons. The Dacians do not really appear in history until they are a target, and not really again after that.

I am afraid what we have here is a nationalistic falsifying his history. Which is a shame because the truth is always far more interesting.

[CiviC]

No, it's not true. The Dacians never penetrated the Roman Empire like swathes of Germanic peoples, never brought Rome to near destruction like the Carthaginians or Gauls, and never launched a seriously threatening rebellion, like the Britons. The Dacians do not really appear in history until they are a target, and not really again after that.

Ever heard of Burebista? That's about 100 years before Trajan.

[bushbush]

Ever heard of Burebista? That's about 100 years before Trajan.

how does that prove they were an worthy enemy? Burebista (the barbaric tribal leader) was assassinated before he even got beyond the little territory and threaten rome in any meaningful way. Then dacians had some more raids against Romans and finally romans decided to crush them like a bug and assimilated these people. All in all, they were a pain in the ass, but a small pain comparing to the germans who were never pacified and at the end came back to facilitate the fall of rome. There is no comparison. At the end you can't argue against the fact that dacians were wiped off the map as a credible threat and germans weren't.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Ever heard of Burebista? That's about 100 years before Trajan.

...

I made a bloody post about it.

Is there anybody who doesn't happen to be Romanian who thinks the Dacians are Rome's "toughest" enemy?

[Carpathian Wolf]

For those still having trouble with the Queen's Royal English, as Civic pointed out, this is clearly in reference to the Dacians during Trajan's time. Trajan actually pulled legions off of the front with Germans (to show you who he thought was more dangerous) in order to invade Dacia which was one of the largest if not the largest invasion of any enemy by the Romans. Talking about Germans as in when the Goths sacked Rome some 300 years later is just stupid and doesn't even fit in the time frame of the conversation.

[Manco]

Trajan actually pulled legions off of the front with Germans (to show you who he thought was more dangerous) in order to invade Dacia

Which doesn't mean anything. The conflict with the Germans was cold at the time. If the Germans had been actively invading and raiding, no way those troops would've been sent to Dacia.
(Just like the US moving troops from Western Germany to Korea doesn't mean Korea is suddenly more dangerous than the USSR. It just means you have a hot as opposed to a cold conflict)

Talking about Germans as in when the Goths sacked Rome some 300 years later is just stupid and doesn't even fit in the time frame of the conversation.

He quite literally said 'until the arrival of the Huns', so they very much fit the timescale.

Whilst being an amateur at best, I kinda agree with Ferrets. Dacia is really only known for the one brutal campaign. Gauls and Germans were fought for centuries, and both threatened Roman heartlands at various times.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Dacia is really only known for the one brutal campaign.

Precisely. Trajan pacified Dacia, destroyed its capital, scattered its people, and turned his attention to the Parthians - a far more significant enemy.

We shouldn't be humouring this stupid Romanian nationalist wank fantasy.

[Erebus Pasha]

For those still having trouble with the Queen's Royal English, as Civic pointed out, this is clearly in reference to the Dacians during Trajan's time. Trajan actually pulled legions off of the front with Germans (to show you who he thought was more dangerous) in order to invade Dacia which was one of the largest if not the largest invasion of any enemy by the Romans. Talking about Germans as in when the Goths sacked Rome some 300 years later is just stupid and doesn't even fit in the time frame of the conversation.

The OP set no limits on the timeframe so I can go back as far as the early republic or to as late as the fall of the Western Empire if I were to choose who was Rome's toughest enemy.

Myself I will echo the statements of Ferrets and Conon in plucking for the Germans and pointing out that the Dacians were just a limited threat during the time of Trajan and were comprehensively defeated in a brutal campaign.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Myself I will echo the statements of Ferrets and Conon in plucking for the Germans and pointing out the Dacians were just a limited threat during the time of Trajan and were comprehensively defeated in a brutal campaign.

They weren't even considered any special enough threat to be treated with any sort of special aggression. Like many peoples across Europe the Dacians took part in raiding and it was such a raid that brought on the first Dacian War in Domitian's reign. The war progressed with an early Dacian victory, and then a subsequent defeat, and Domitian made the Dacians a client state rather than pursue the war partly due to forces being needed on the Rhine to deal with Germanic tribes.

The threat of the Dacians subsided after the death Decebalus because the Dacian Kingdom split into four. However, they didn't really play the client state game very well and raids began again, which led to Trajan's invasion. Trajan having seen that the typical Roman policy of enlisting client Kings had not worked with the Dacians, organised a campaign of destruction that was wholly successful. Their city was razed, their armies slaughtered and tens of thousands of their people enslaved. Their culture was wiped out. Done.

Greatest enemies of Rome? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not even by the standards of the time. As we seen Domitian considered Germans on the Rhine far more of a threat than the Dacians, Trajan went on to attack the Parthians. One of the most detailed military campaigns we have is from Domitian's reign... and it was in Britain. Domitian clearly took the military threat in Britain very seriously, and of course it was only a short time previous that the Romans had almost lost the province and suffered the destruction of several colonia and even the provincial capital to the Iceni revolt.

So, yeah. The Dacians represent no special significance in the rogue's gallery of the Roman Empire. Sorry Romanians.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Yes. Trajan's invasion of Dacia was by all means logistically thorough and involved a concentration of force. Is this unusal for Roman invasions? Did the Romans feel that conquering the Dacians would take any particularly unusual heavy use of force? No.

The invasion went to plan. The Dacians were conquered and enslaved. So much for the greatest enemies of Rome, ha!

[Carpathian Wolf]

Yes. Trajan's invasion of Dacia was by all means logistically thorough and involved a concentration of force. Is this unusal for Roman invasions? Did the Romans feel that conquering the Dacians would take any particularly unusual heavy use of force? No.

No it wasn't "logistically thorough." That's an understatement. it was the largest invasion in Roman history.

The invasion went to plan. The Dacians were conquered and enslaved. So much for the greatest enemies of Rome, ha!

Precisely. Trajan pacified Dacia, destroyed its capital, scattered its people, and turned his attention to the Parthians - a far more significant enemy.

A gross over simplification ignoring the role the Costoboci and Carpi tribes of the Dacians played hundreds of years after the war. But this is typical from you.

We shouldn't be humouring this stupid Romanian nationalist wank fantasy.

We'll see how hypocritical this is with your next statement.

Domitian clearly took the military threat in Britain very seriously, and of course it was only a short time previous that the Romans had almost lost the province and suffered the destruction of several colonia and even the provincial capital to the Iceni revolt.

Right. How can we forget the glorious raids of the British Celts on the vital tin supplies of the Roman Empire. Nevermind Dacia which was "cursed with gold and silver." It's funny you accuse us of "nationalistic wanking" and here you go proclaiming your country as the greatest threat.

They weren't even considered any special enough threat to be treated with any sort of special aggression. Like many peoples across Europe the Dacians took part in raiding and it was such a raid that brought on the first Dacian War in Domitian's reign. The war progressed with an early Dacian victory, and then a subsequent defeat, and Domitian made the Dacians a client state rather than pursue the war partly due to forces being needed on the Rhine to deal with Germanic tribes.

Uh no. Domitian set up a treaty that was embarrassing for him and the Roman Empire and everyone knew it. They had to supply the Dacians with workers, weaponry and siege equipment. People always bring up Teutoburg where the Romans lost 3 Legions. Yet against the Dacians at Tapae the Romans lost 4 to 6 legions. And this wasn't off in some remote god forsaken place it was right on the door step of the Roman Empire's territory.

The threat of the Dacians subsided after the death Decebalus because the Dacian Kingdom split into four. However, they didn't really play the client state game very well and raids began again, which led to Trajan's invasion. Trajan having seen that the typical Roman policy of enlisting client Kings had not worked with the Dacians, organised a campaign of destruction that was wholly successful. Their city was razed, their armies slaughtered and tens of thousands of their people enslaved. Their culture was wiped out. Done.

Oh impress us not with your extensive knowledge some more. Are you forgetting the raids of the Costoboci and Carpi tribes of the Dacians? Those continued long after Trajan's war. Hell we even have Byzantine writers complain about the Vlachs "who are descendent of the Dacians and the Bessi." And who set up Thesselian Wallachia and the Byzantines say that no one can master them.

And culture was not wiped out. What do you know about Romanian culture that makes you say that? Nothing. You're arguments are just vindictive and childish.

Which doesn't mean anything. The conflict with the Germans was cold at the time. If the Germans had been actively invading and raiding, no way those troops would've been sent to Dacia.
(Just like the US moving troops from Western Germany to Korea doesn't mean Korea is suddenly more dangerous than the USSR. It just means you have a hot as opposed to a cold conflict)

http://books.google.com/books?id=swD...age&q=&f=false

Try again.

Whilst being an amateur at best, I kinda agree with Ferrets. Dacia is really only known for the one brutal campaign. Gauls and Germans were fought for centuries, and both threatened Roman heartlands at various times.

Sounds like an argument out of ignorance.

The toughest enemies Rome faced are quite visible if you look at what the Romans wrote. The Carthaginians were by far the toughest and most dangerous, and the Gauls if you're willing to go farther back in history. It seems to be that the Dacians were not the toughest enemy Rome faced either in the time of Trajan or throughout Rome's history, as I would argue that the Parthians were still the biggest threat to the Empire, as were the tribes north of the Rhine and Danube.

During Trajan's time if you look at the situation you'll see that the Parthians were fairly weak and divided. They were on the outskirts of the Empire's borders. Heck even the soldiers said that they didn't care for the Parthian arrows after fighting the Dacians.

People here who are negating the Dacians are doing so simply out of spite and it's very obvious from the tone their comments take.

[Stavroforos]

The toughest enemies Rome faced are quite visible if you look at what the Romans wrote. The Carthaginians were by far the toughest and most dangerous, and the Gauls if you're willing to go farther back in history. It seems to be that the Dacians were not the toughest enemy Rome faced either in the time of Trajan or throughout Rome's history, as I would argue that the Parthians were still the biggest threat to the Empire, as were the tribes north of the Rhine and Danube.

[bushbush]

i actually think the toughest enemies of romans are...(please dont blame me for bringing up a cliche), themselves. Their own civil wars and internal politics drained their resources considerably and weakened their power against foreign enemies at the end.

but if modern romanians want to claim how cool their destroyed and pacified ancestors were by trying to claim this empty title, by all means go ahead.

The invasion went to plan. The Dacians were conquered and enslaved. So much for the greatest enemies of Rome, ha!

That's very tough indeed, so tough we can't even find a book written by them anymore.

[Visarion]

I actually think the toughest enemies of Romans are themselves. Their own civil wars and internal politics drained their resources considerably and weakened their power against foreign enemies at the end.

very good post!