Chatam Docks - the british kingdom's achilles heel

I recently tried great britain as a coalition campaign and was quite surprised when I suddenly was bankrupt while only the previous turn my income was quite high.
A single french frigate had raided chatam docks (the trade port of London)
I had zero income and only came out by scrapping some construction in london to repair chatam again.
Apparently ALL trade income from other nation goes via Chatam!
So if the french raid it, an AI great Britain will go bankrupt!
This may be the cause for the often rather weak AI performance of the british in NTW.
Modders could either make Chatam unraidable somehow or better yet, transfer the trade to another port like Liverpool or so.

there are a few mods in development at the moment which are looking into changing CAI, their priorities etc.

For example, JaMs mod for NTW has already improved AI and a few other things in the game, and is now looking at tweaking CAI so they consider reclaiming lost territory a higher priority then they already do.

Perhaps something can be done to make Chatam docks a high priority for the GB CAI.

Originally Posted by GTFO. Jamie

there are a few mods in development at the moment which are looking into changing CAI, their priorities etc.

For example, JaMs mod for NTW has already improved AI and a few other things in the game, and is now looking at tweaking CAI so they consider reclaiming lost territory a higher priority then they already do.

Perhaps something can be done to make Chatam docks a high priority for the GB CAI.

I use JaMs mod.
Maybe that's the reason why I get such excessive Chatam port raiding
The bloody frogs seem to be really aggressive in 0.6 even in the naval field.
I get constant frigate raiders bound for the trade nodes.
Funny is I haven't yet had a single land battle...
Solved it with a single unit of fencibles...

At least in my imperial edition vanilla game, British (played by me) trade goes through at least 3 trade ports. Chattam docks actually have the 2nd trade volume, not the first. Maybe the mod was the reason ALL your trade was going through Chattam?

A single French frigate getting to Chattam, that's a different issue. It seems, someone was neglecting British channel naval defenses

I never understood this weird way of gauging national trade income. I agree that raiding a harbor should have penalties for the raided party but wholescale trade meltdown is excesive. Moreso when the raider is, like in this case, a simple cheap frigate. Its not like such trade shipping would not be diverted elsewhere in the emergency.

Originally Posted by Ebusitanus

I never understood this weird way of gauging national trade income. I agree that raiding a harbor should have penalties for the raided party but wholescale trade meltdown is excesive. Moreso when the raider is, like in this case, a simple cheap frigate. Its not like such trade shipping would not be diverted elsewhere in the emergency.

The problem lies in the trade mechanism. All trade must pass through your capital its the way the game works. Its why you can't have overland trade with a nation if you don't have a direct link from their national capital to yours. Same with sea trade. What happens then is if you have a single trading port connected to your capital and it is destroyed then no sea trade can make it to the capital. Build a trading port elsewhere and your trade routes should shift. At least that is how I understand it.

Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat

Build a trading port elsewhere and your trade routes should shift. At least that is how I understand it.

am not too sure on this last part, as i have been in this situation and yet i have other trading ports around GB. Yet when Chatam Docks is raided, i will lose all income from trade. (afaik)

Surely if you've got other trade routes this shouldn't happen!

Also... why are you even allowing a lowly frigate past your defences into your harbour?

Originally Posted by burden010

Surely if you've got other trade routes this shouldn't happen!

Also... why are you even allowing a lowly frigate past your defences into your harbour?

we as players can resolve the issue and take back our docks, or keep a fleet there to stop it happening, but the question is whether the GB CAI can also be smart enough to defend this port. Which doesnt seem to often happen

Originally Posted by GTFO. Jamie

we as players can resolve the issue and take back our docks, or keep a fleet there to stop it happening, but the question is whether the GB CAI can also be smart enough to defend this port. Which doesnt seem to often happen

The answer to that question is a resonating NO!...

British AI is so dumb that it is unable to exercise ANY control of the channel, despite having an overwhelming naval force there at the game start. British AI is not able (willing) to raid French ports in a consistent manner either. At most, it blockades a port just to abandon it the next turn. Interestingly enough, when I played Russia, Ottoman AI demonstrated remarkable consistency in blockading my Black sea port: 20 turns in a row. Maybe the fact it was my ONLY port on the Black Sea had something to do with it. The AI did not get "confused" by abundance of potential targets.

I realized, some mods might correct this lack of CAI intelligence. However, I am also wary about NTW mods in general for one reason. It seems, modifications make multi-player campaigns (and drop-ins) impossible unless both sides have exactly the same mod. Since having tasted MP campaign flavor, there is no going back to SP campaign for me. No mod, no matter how excellent can substitute for a human brain being 'on the other side'...

i was under the impression you can still play GC or MP even if you use mods, they just wont have any affect on the actual MP game.

Originally Posted by GTFO. Jamie

i was under the impression you can still play GC or MP even if you use mods, they just wont have any affect on the actual MP game.

No. For example, I have vanilla Imperial Edition. My opponent had a mod that modified flags, nothing else. When we tried to start a campaign, we got a message our versions were incompatible. Once he removed the mod, we could play fine.

After I built a trade port in Bristol, some of the traffic shifted there, but it's true that the vast majority of it still goes through Chatham.

Chatham was more of a Military dock than trade port. A fair few of the RN ships where built in her yards. Also the dockyard has Fort Amherst, which is a "modern" fort to protect it.
I live in Chatham as it happens and walk past both the above on the way home from work.

I think that the differential in merchant ship building capacity (and proximity to American trade nodes) would be telling, and that unless you're able to somehow shut down British trading, the Brits would eventually steamroller. Your current opponent should be spamming merchantmen now, right? Unless you actually can consistently shut down his ports with spies. (Counter-spies & gentlemen counter-espionage effectiveness == ?)

You're going to have to keep us posted.

Originally Posted by Randall Turner

I think that the differential in merchant ship building capacity (and proximity to American trade nodes) would be telling, and that unless you're able to somehow shut down British trading, the Brits would eventually steamroller. Your current opponent should be spamming merchantmen now, right? Unless you actually can consistently shut down his ports with spies. (Counter-spies & gentlemen counter-espionage effectiveness == ?)

You're going to have to keep us posted.

The North-American trade nodes have much lower value than the Southern ones. Near North Africa you have Spices, Sugar, Coffee, Tea and Ivory. You can out-trade Britain easily just by spamming your own merchantmen to Ivory and Spices...

Second, sure, playing as France it would be difficult for you to place a spy in human controlled Britain. However, you can easily place your spies (or raiding parties) in the ports of the major factions that Britain trades with. They are likely to be your enemies anyway. If you shut down their trade, you have effectively shut down Britain's. Portugal would be an immediate example. Why let them trade with the Brits? Send a unit of chasseurs through Spain to burn down Portuguese trading port. After the deed is done, send the raiders into the local mountains to do some foraging. Once the Portuguese repair the port, repeat the procedure.

If you worried about British doing spy action against you, the risk is actually smaller. Britain has only one spy and no ability to train more unless they convert their university into a club or grab a territory with an appropriate slot.

Bottom line: Britain is not as invulnerable as it appears to be.

You've got me thinking from the other side now.

My experience with ETW was that even with one trading partner, we got full market value for our trade goods. It might be to Britain's advantage to limit the number of trade partners and then mount expeditions & naval task forces to guard the other end of their trade routes, rather than raid France proper. (my, that sounds almost historical.)

It's my experience with NTW that though the southern trade routes are richer, France only starts with one port that can build merchantmen in the Mediterranean - its Atlantic ports are subject to interdiction. Britain starts with at least three (I have to re-check), so she can spam merchantmen immediately. Also, I tend to hide next to the Spanish navy as France, but the Spanish fleet doesn't move offensively - which makes the South Atlantic sugar nodes very, very risky.

Likewise, the Batavian fleet is a floating RN reinforcement opportunity and tends to congregate at the mid-Atlantic nodes. Even with a human commander the main British challenge there is not shooting them so full of holes that they all sink. Combined French + Batavian fleets might give the RN a challenge, but see "very, very risky" above.

Overall, what's obvious is that I'm missing a bet not playing MP Campaign right now. Darn hard to sync play time, though.

If your playing as GB no enemy ship should ever reach any of your docks. You start out with a Admiral and another ship in that area use both those ships to damage all the ports in that area, Build sloops to cover every port. Have one sloop with a militia unit on use it to force ships out of the dock so you can start damageing them. When damaging docks don't sit in the dock move in and out a few times but always end with the ships out so the enemy won't send troops to protect it. Once, you get the hang of it you will control the seas and almost every trade node with little to no resistance if you do it fast enough.

This is a bit overblown. To demonstrate I allowed France to blockade Chatham and took a shot of the result:


As you can see all trade from Russia, Prussia, Sweden, and Denmark is blocked. Trade from Austria and America is not.



Neither did this reduce my income to 0, I still have an income of 1316:



If you do not have sufficient income coming from other places, then yes this can completely kill your income. But as I have a trade agreement with Austria, and their trade comes in the southern route to Cardiff, I dont lose that money. Follow the trade routes from capital to capital and you will know which port it enters.

Also, place a ton of trade ships on the routes to America. The first one gets you 20 of whatever resource it is on, every other ship after that gets you 17.

You can see here that I only have 1 trade ship on the St Augustine route and it gets me 20 cotton. Cotton is worth 26 right now so that works out to 520 in income.




However on the route to Savanahh I have 7 trade ships. You get 20 for the first one, and 17 for each ship after that.

20 + (6*17) = 122 * 26 = 3172 income




The trade system works as it should, you just have to understand how it works. When playing as England you need to dominate the trade routes to America early in the game. Take out those damn Spaniards on the route to St Augustine in your first or second turn and start building trade ships to the American routes. This should be the first thing you do every turn, check to see if you can build a new trade ship.

And then defend them. Notice my fleet near the St Augstine route that prevents anyone from going up the west side of the map. That is the captured French 122 gun ship, and a couple of 38 gun frigates. Its still early in the game but the plan is to have 6 or 7 good ships defending all that trade to America. My original 122 gun ship and the other frigates are usually defending Chatham but I moved them to take these shots.

Build two decent sized fleets to defend trade around England, then start building a 3rd and camp it out around Gibraltar. You start with Gibraltar and the first instinct is to make that port a commercial port. This is a mistake. Make it a dockyard to build warships.

Once you have Gibraltar secured from the inevitable Spanish first attack, start building warships. Just a few at first will work. Get a small fleet built up there and start sending trade ships down to the ivory, sugar, and tea trade routes into Africa and South America. If you dont overextend yourself by attacking France too early then you can take Barcelona and the Balearic Isles fairly easily and set one of them to building trade ships.

Once you have a couple of those going fairly well you can start planning to invade France and if they happen to sneak by you while you are moving troops and blockade Chatham it wont kill you.

GED, this is a nice post with a lot of good info, and you're right that it's a bit overblown, ie, the "money line" of the OP's post...

Originally Posted by JCR

So if the french raid it, an AI great Britain will go bankrupt!

..is a bit of an overstatement - but I don't think anyone has any trouble playing as Britain in singleplayer campaign. The interesting bits start when either Britain is an AI faction or (and this is the revelation for me) playing as Britain in an MP campaign.

I'd also make the observation that the bulk of a MP Britain's income mid-game and onwards will be coming from trade, so it'll sting.