Mamertines

[Quinn Inuit]

Found a couple of coins (courtesy of EB player Urg at the Org) depicting Mamertines:
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Are...mS_232-43.html
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Are...S_303-56a.html

From the looks of it, they fought as with the aspis. This guy says the coins look like they're fighting with throwing spears, but at least one of those guys appears to have a doru, and possibly both.

I'm thinking the best bet for these guys would be Campanian hoplites + Samnite LI. I think the best way to conceptualize them is as Campanian officers and heavy infantry with units of Samnites they hired from the nearby mountains as cannon fodder and support.

What do you think?

[Carados]

Maybe a few other units wouldn't go amiss? Perhaps a single samnite heavy infantry unit to act as a leading component for the samnites. Just to give them a bit more flavour really, a walled city with just two types of units in is rather boring to have a go at.

[Quinn Inuit]

Good point. How about some Italic cavalry and a couple of skirmish units of some sort, too?

[Caesar Augustus]

I think for gameplay purposes it would probably be worth having a few types of line infantry, some missile units and some cavalry? Just so it will be a bit more interesting to capture.

I don't really know anything at all about the Mamertines though so I don't know what would be most accurate.

[Quinn Inuit]

Eh, the list of what anyone knows about them seems to be pretty darn short. Some of the evidence points to an interesting combination of Italic and Greek fighting styles, though. I mean, an aspis + javelins? Odd combo.

[Carados]

They did take over a whole settlement, which would logically lead to them acquiring all their arms and armour. Being local raiders would lead to a large mix of equipment too. How big is the garrison going to be? Campanians, light Samnite and heavy Samnite for the combat infantry. Some italic skirmishers of some type, perhaps some greek peltests too to show the greek influence. Polish them off with a unit of italic heavy and javcav each. Ta da! Perhaps the number should be 4 Campanians, 2 light Samnites, 1 heavy Samnite, 2 italic skirmishers, 2 greek skirmishers, 1 italic heavy and 1 italic javelin??

Also, the more I think about it, the more I reckon Rhegium should start out as rebels.

[Quinn Inuit]

Rhegium should start out as rebels, but I'm worried Pyrrhus will make a beeline there if we do that.

That lineup for the Mamertines sounds good.

[Caesar Augustus]

The unit line up sounds pretty good.

Re Rhegium - weren't you guys going to up the unrest levels and change the culture to Greek to increase the chances of it revolting to solve the problem with Pyrrhus?

[Carados]

Re Rhegium - weren't you guys going to up the unrest levels and change the culture to Greek to increase the chances of it revolting to solve the problem with Pyrrhus?

We both tried and nothing worked

As for Pyrrhus going southwards, perhaps this is what we should really be trying to do? More specifically, try and get him to Sicily. He took over the entire island bar, Lilybaeum, in a couple of years wheras Carthage and Rome spent ~2 decades fighting over it (granted, Cathage had a solid foothold when Rome came but they did have ~50'000 troops on the island when Pyrrhus landed).

[Quinn Inuit]

Yeah. It is downright bizarre how much Rhegium wants to stay with the Romans.

That's not a bad idea. It's definitely reasonable for him to want to go there. I just hate to deprive Roman players of the challenge of fighting him early on, though.

[Carados]

Yeah. I can definitely see the reasons for wanting him to remain in Italy. However, if we can get the balance right and manipulate a few win conditions, we can have Pyrrhus bloody the Romans in the first few years - avoid getting Pyrrhus stuck in a city - then have him leave for Sicily when the Romans don't submit so easily. We have to remember that there was only two major battles between Pyrrhus and the Romans before he left for Sicily. If we were to go ahead with our 0-turn Roman recruitment, we could feasibly get rid of that smaller Roman army in the north thus seriously reducing the overall power of the Romans in the early game. Or maybe just reduce the development of Rome, Capua and Ancona slightly so that they don't make as much money so early on. Or something.

We don't have to have it so that he goes to Sicily all the time since it's impossible to get him to go from Italy to Sicily, from Sicily to Italy, from Italy to Macedonia and then down to Greece. Sometimes the fates might dictate that Pyrrhus sees the Romans as the real enemy in the Mediterranean and will continue his war with them. Other times he'll see Carthage as the greater prize.

Worth a shot maybe? Pyrrhus should definitely remain in Italy for a short while at least, regardless of what route we take.


Back on topic ... what type of units would Rhegium have? Something along the lines of the Marmertines, just with less flexibility?

[Quinn Inuit]

Yeah. I can definitely see the reasons for wanting him to remain in Italy. However, if we can get the balance right and manipulate a few win conditions, we can have Pyrrhus bloody the Romans in the first few years - avoid getting Pyrrhus stuck in a city - then have him leave for Sicily when the Romans don't submit so easily. We have to remember that there was only two major battles between Pyrrhus and the Romans before he left for Sicily. If we were to go ahead with our 0-turn Roman recruitment, we could feasibly get rid of that smaller Roman army in the north thus seriously reducing the overall power of the Romans in the early game. Or maybe just reduce the development of Rome, Capua and Ancona slightly so that they don't make as much money so early on. Or something.

That's a good point. Getting rid of that army would be nice, since the AI often blows it.

We don't have to have it so that he goes to Sicily all the time since it's impossible to get him to go from Italy to Sicily, from Sicily to Italy, from Italy to Macedonia and then down to Greece. Sometimes the fates might dictate that Pyrrhus sees the Romans as the real enemy in the Mediterranean and will continue his war with them. Other times he'll see Carthage as the greater prize.

Worth a shot maybe? Pyrrhus should definitely remain in Italy for a short while at least, regardless of what route we take.

I think it's worth a shot. Let's mess with starting conditions and see how it goes. We can always revert it if it fails. It would be neat if we could get Pyrrhus to fight in Italy once and then head toward Rhegium. We could always script it, I suppose.

Back on topic ... what type of units would Rhegium have? Something along the lines of the Marmertines, just with less flexibility?

Pretty much. These guys were ex-Roman Army troops, though, so let's give them some Italic legionnaires along with a Campanian hoplite or two instead of triarii. Maybe some Samnite support LI, and definitely a unit of of Campanian/Italic generic spear cavalry.

[Carados]

I think it's worth a shot. Let's mess with starting conditions and see how it goes. We can always revert it if it fails. It would be neat if we could get Pyrrhus to fight in Italy once and then head toward Rhegium. We could always script it, I suppose.

If we script anything then we should make Pyrrhus travel to Sicily via a fleet created by an Act of Mod' (get it? ). Though I think he should head South without too much trouble. I think the greatest problem with getting Pyrrhus to do things is actually a case of garrison duty. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Pyrrhus tends to stay in a city once he's taken it (usually Corfinium). The reason for this, I suspect, is to keep the settlement under control. The rest of his army usually takes to the field again at one point, but Pyrrhus remains.

Pretty much. These guys were ex-Roman Army troops, though, so let's give them some Italic legionnaires along with a Campanian hoplite or two instead of triarii. Maybe some Samnite support LI, and definitely a unit of of Campanian/Italic generic spear cavalry.

Ah, yes. Good idea. Why instead of Triarii? I don't see anything particularly wrong with just the one each of the usual trio. If it's to do with loyalty, I'm sure the Principles would be just as susceptible to making a stand long with the Triarii. On the flip-side, they are equally as likely to rebel. Imo.

1x Campanian cavalry, 1x Italic Hastati, 1x Italic Principles, 1x Italic Triarii, 1x Campanian Hoplites, 1x Samnite LI, 1x Samnite HI, 2x skirmishers. Perhaps a unit of javcav too?

[Quinn Inuit]

If we script anything then we should make Pyrrhus travel to Sicily via a fleet created by an Act of Mod' (get it? ). Though I think he should head South without too much trouble. I think the greatest problem with getting Pyrrhus to do things is actually a case of garrison duty. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Pyrrhus tends to stay in a city once he's taken it (usually Corfinium). The reason for this, I suspect, is to keep the settlement under control. The rest of his army usually takes to the field again at one point, but Pyrrhus remains.

Act of Mod? I like it!

I agree about the garrison duty being a problem. I think the issue is that he's too good a garrison commander, and the AI may have reservations about risking a faction leader in combat, too. I wonder if he would stop doing that if we dropped his management abilities and maybe gave him an unrest-causing trait. He certainly caused unrest in Sicily while he was there.

Ah, yes. Good idea. Why instead of Triarii? I don't see anything particularly wrong with just the one each of the usual trio. If it's to do with loyalty, I'm sure the Principles would be just as susceptible to making a stand long with the Triarii. On the flip-side, they are equally as likely to rebel. Imo.

Well, I figured that, if we were going to give them Campanian hoplites (and I'd like to), then giving them triarii might be too many spear units. Plus, it would give them a unique army.

1x Campanian cavalry, 1x Italic Hastati, 1x Italic Principles, 1x Italic Triarii, 1x Campanian Hoplites, 1x Samnite LI, 1x Samnite HI, 2x skirmishers. Perhaps a unit of javcav too?

I would remove the Italic Triarii and replace the 2 skirmishers with one unit of Samnite LI and one unit of javcav (to represent Samnite or other such cavalry). How does that sound?

[Carados]

Act of Mod? I like it!

I agree about the garrison duty being a problem. I think the issue is that he's too good a garrison commander, and the AI may have reservations about risking a faction leader in combat, too. I wonder if he would stop doing that if we dropped his management abilities and maybe gave him an unrest-causing trait. He certainly caused unrest in Sicily while he was there.

A couple of those would help immensely. A big factor is also the amount of influence. Each level of influence adds a further 5% to public order. Management itself doesn't have any effect on the level of unrest in a settlement. Currently he has 3 or 4 points of influence, and is highly likely to get another one because of taking a legionarie eagle. That's 15-25% extra to public order.

One thing that might help is to expand on the Roman police unit that we are thinking of having. I suggested we turn it into a kind of "general" unit. It might be appropriate to add this to the other "civilised" factions? If so, this could tempt Epirus to send Pyrrhus out into the field should there be a governor unit around.

Well, I figured that, if we were going to give them Campanian hoplites (and I'd like to), then giving them triarii might be too many spear units. Plus, it would give them a unique army.
I would remove the Italic Triarii and replace the 2 skirmishers with one unit of Samnite LI and one unit of javcav (to represent Samnite or other such cavalry). How does that sound?

Oki dokes. We'll try that then. Just the one unit of Campanian hoplites?

[Pat89]

If we script anything then we should make Pyrrhus travel to Sicily via a fleet created by an Act of Mod' (get it? ).

Do you mean to spawn a fleet by script?
If, so... I don't think that's possible, because fleets will then be normal armies in the eye's of the AI.

Not all to sure about that, but there was a reason why it couldn't be implemented back when HoH was working on a script for FoE to manage the recruitment of mini-factions (an idea which we dropped in the end and instead used normal recruitment) and some faction should have needed fleet-recruitment-script as well.

[Caesar Augustus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamertines - I know it's only Wikipedia, but the article shows that they appealed to Pyrrhus, Rome, and Carthage for protection. Ultimately they ended up with the Romans, so would it be worth giving Messana Roman culture, particularly as they were of Italian descent?

I'm still keen on Rhegium being Greek to increase the chances of it revolting? Or is it just going to be a rebel settlement? I guess you'd also need to consider the effect the culture would have on the AOR troops available too?

[Quinn Inuit]

Pat: if HoH couldn't do it, there's no way in heck that I can. We'll have to just run him down the land, then.

I'll mess around with him at the weekend then. Provided I'm not hooked on pokemon

Ok. Maybe just catch 75% of 'em (as opposed to "all") so you have time for modding.

On the plus side, my crazy time at work is done. On the minus side, Saturday is going to be spent doing taxes and Sunday I have both Easter _and_ Passover stuff to do.

I would prefer the Romans to have them as well, but if you think it'll mess up the system then we should leave it out. I'm not sure if it'll really be a problem though since wasn't military service almost a pre-requisit for a political career?

Yes, but if people have the governor unit, wouldn't they not need to bother bringing up their own praetors? Then again, the praetors will be a lot nicer, and be useful militarily, too.

Back to the Marmetines and 'Rhegionites'. If they are both going rebel what type of culture should they have? I've seen them both Greek and Roman at some point in the various realism mods.

IMO, both should be Roman, to represent the fact that they were Italics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamertines - I know it's only Wikipedia, but the article shows that they appealed to Pyrrhus, Rome, and Carthage for protection. Ultimately they ended up with the Romans, so would it be worth giving Messana Roman culture, particularly as they were of Italian descent?

I'm still keen on Rhegium being Greek to increase the chances of it revolting? Or is it just going to be a rebel settlement? I guess you'd also need to consider the effect the culture would have on the AOR troops available too?

I don't think culture affects AOR. But making it Greek to make it more likely to revolt does have merit. We could give it high base unrest, but that would screw over other factions. I could slip in a special hidden resource and give it high unrest when controlled by Romans, I suppose.

[Carados]

Pat: if HoH couldn't do it, there's no way in heck that I can. We'll have to just run him down the land, then.

Ahhhh the ship script was a joke we're a bit restricted with what we can do with things once a game has been started.

Ok. Maybe just catch 75% of 'em (as opposed to "all") so you have time for modding.

On the plus side, my crazy time at work is done. On the minus side, Saturday is going to be spent doing taxes and Sunday I have both Easter _and_ Passover stuff to do.

I've already caught about 80% them. The rest are mainly from gold/silver/crystal - for which the 4th gen remakes have just recently been released.

Oh nice. Was this week catch-up because of the time lost during those snowstorms? I've finished my work experience now, they said I can come back for the 1st week after Easter if I want to .

Yes, but if people have the governor unit, wouldn't they not need to bother bringing up their own praetors? Then again, the praetors will be a lot nicer, and be useful militarily, too.

From my experience if I want a very good general then I'll spend the time advancing them through the system. For governors though I just use any old general because the academy will give them ample boosts to their management and influence.

IMO, both should be Roman, to represent the fact that they were Italics.

Messena should definitely be Roman and I think most people seem to be in agreement with this. Rhegium seems to be more of a contencious issue.

I don't think culture affects AOR. But making it Greek to make it more likely to revolt does have merit. We could give it high base unrest, but that would screw over other factions. I could slip in a special hidden resource and give it high unrest when controlled by Romans, I suppose.

Settlement culture doesn't affect AOR, I'm sure.

For Rhegium we have two main concerns. The first is it's relation to Rome, the second is the relation to Epirus. For Rome, the ideal situation would be to start it off in their hands, and then have it rebel. We've tried this and failed, therefore it will start of as rebels. When it comes to Pyrrhus, we would likely want Pyrrhus to quickly move on to Messena/Syracuse/Argigento. If Rhegium is Roman then this will take longer. If Rhegium is Greek then he won't get bogged down.

I'm thinking Greek at the moment.

[Quinn Inuit]

Ahhhh the ship script was a joke we're a bit restricted with what we can do with things once a game has been started.

Oh, ok. It would be cool, though.

I've already caught about 80% them. The rest are mainly from gold/silver/crystal - for which the 4th gen remakes have just recently been released.

Nice work. That's a proper Pokemon collection.

btw, speaking of Pokemon, I have an AMV suggestion for everyone:


If it makes your brains explode, then my work here is done.

Oh nice. Was this week catch-up because of the time lost during those snowstorms? I've finished my work experience now, they said I can come back for the 1st week after Easter if I want to .

Congratulations!

Sort. I'm kind of wearing two hats at work ATM, and I got behind on one of them. Catch-up was difficult, but I'm now pretty much caught up with work. Now I just need to catch up with the life I got behind on while I was working.

From my experience if I want a very good general then I'll spend the time advancing them through the system. For governors though I just use any old general because the academy will give them ample boosts to their management and influence.

Ok, then it might not be a problem. I'll see what I can come up with.

Messena should definitely be Roman and I think most people seem to be in agreement with this. Rhegium seems to be more of a contencious issue.

For Rhegium we have two main concerns. The first is it's relation to Rome, the second is the relation to Epirus. For Rome, the ideal situation would be to start it off in their hands, and then have it rebel. We've tried this and failed, therefore it will start of as rebels. When it comes to Pyrrhus, we would likely want Pyrrhus to quickly move on to Messena/Syracuse/Argigento. If Rhegium is Roman then this will take longer. If Rhegium is Greek then he won't get bogged down.

I'm thinking Greek at the moment.

That sounds like an excellent reason for doing it like that. I've made a note to myself to make sure that's how it's set up.