Upkeep Costs

[deadlyshadow187]

Upkeep Costs are way to high, literally I'm always broke, and the AI has to be getting more money than i am cause there able to field way more units than I am, the first campaign i tried was unplayable, i simply would be outnumbered 3 to 1 all the time, and since it's just about impossible to field same amount or at least higher grade less units cause you'll go bankrupt, or at the very least be unable to build anything cause of a complete lack of money.

Now i love the new difficulty of the campaign but I've had to edit most of the descr_unit and building files to re-balance the game, i have no issue with a high recruitment cost, but you need to keep the upkeep to base vanilla standards or it's simply not any fun, your always broke and outnumbered.

Other than that really great mod, though you might think about changing the movement points for units as well, makes it more in line with empire, also find it makes the game much more entertaining when it doesn't take retarded amounts of turns to get anywhere, wasn't fun in vanilla def not fun in the mod, exact reason it was changed in empire, also changed the recruit for castles to be higher, though city's remain the same, makes retraining not take forever, again why they have replenish in empire, no fun sitting around for 5+ turns waiting for retraining.

Anyways, i hope you guys are still working on the mod, it's def fun, just still needs some def tweaks, there was a huge amount of changes from MTW2-Empire for a reason, not simply time line, it's about fun value not tedious BS. Thanks again for your awesome mod, keep up the great work.

-David

[Massive_attack]

I like how the OP sounds like he thinks Empire Toilet Wash was an improvement over anything in medieval 2.

Other than that, the AI does actually get money when it goes into debt. This is because the AI is criminally stupid, and cannot manage its finances.

However, i find that in dealing with the AI, its not so much how many you bring, but what you bring to a battle, and how you use it.

Against AI's, for instance, a horse archer army can defeat several forces numerically superior to it before needing retraining. Also, bridge battles are by far in the defenders favor.

Also worthy of note is that city units get far lower upkeeps in this mod than castle forces. This means that the majority of ones forces up to about mid game should be from cities, and augmented by specialist troops from castles. Attempting to build a military of all castle stacks will leave you broke.

It also seems you simply arent used to SS's economic model. In SS, cities are far more economically important. Its generally advised that so long as they are safe, settlements should be made cities. In addition, as cities grow larger, they generate much more capital. At a huge city level, a city in a good position like venice, can, if the proper buildings are in place and trade rights are agreed upon with neighbors, enough money to sustain multiple full stacks (i think around 3 militia grade armies sounds about right).

[Jiub]

I almost never keep full stacks around, because I never need a full stack for anything. Everything I take, I take using the minimum requirements necessary to take it. I deploy no more troops than needed anywhere.

Do you think it`s fun having stacks after stacks all over the place ?
Think again

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Upkeep Costs are way to high, literally I'm always broke, and the AI has to be getting more money than i am cause there able to field way more units than I am, the first campaign i tried was unplayable, i simply would be outnumbered 3 to 1 all the time, and since it's just about impossible to field same amount or at least higher grade less units cause you'll go bankrupt, or at the very least be unable to build anything cause of a complete lack of money.

Now i love the new difficulty of the campaign but I've had to edit most of the descr_unit and building files to re-balance the game, i have no issue with a high recruitment cost, but you need to keep the upkeep to base vanilla standards or it's simply not any fun, your always broke and outnumbered.

Other than that really great mod, though you might think about changing the movement points for units as well, makes it more in line with empire, also find it makes the game much more entertaining when it doesn't take retarded amounts of turns to get anywhere, wasn't fun in vanilla def not fun in the mod, exact reason it was changed in empire, also changed the recruit for castles to be higher, though city's remain the same, makes retraining not take forever, again why they have replenish in empire, no fun sitting around for 5+ turns waiting for retraining.

Anyways, i hope you guys are still working on the mod, it's def fun, just still needs some def tweaks, there was a huge amount of changes from MTW2-Empire for a reason, not simply time line, it's about fun value not tedious BS. Thanks again for your awesome mod, keep up the great work.

-David

Morning... If I may ask please, SS variation, sub-mods and settings that you are using please? Also the factions your referring to? Some have unique twists here and there. It's hard to properly answer without that.

Local superiority would be the key, it sounds like your playing at a higher setting.

As to further mod development, have you visited the sub-mod forum yet. There's always brilliant folks feverishly at work in there...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=653

[bɑne]

My way to deal with high upkeep costs is to deploy the armies to the field as much as possible until all thats left are small units of highly experienced troops. Puts my money to use either in finding new income or in weakening the enemy. Then the gap between former upkeep costs and reduced cost can be put into retraining. Most of the times I employ this method for every stack seperately if possible so that at any given moment in time my overall number of troops doesnt stray to much from the average as not to appear weak and prompt attack. I also try not to garrison units beyond the free upkeep level if not absolutly necessary. Especially militia units with costs like 180 training and 70-140 upkeep can get my axe (disband) pretty quickly in order to free up income. In times of peace heavy & expensive core units don't get retrained but dispersed over castle free upkeep slots prioritizing on biggest and most expensive units filling the slots first and inexperienced cheaper units that can be easily retrained get fully disbanded.

[Ichon]

Hmm... if you are keeping full companies of Feudal Knights just patrolling I guess you could run into upkeep problems but I find myself hitting the recruitment limit of how many troops I can support for my regions almost every game and still growing cash into 100 thousands. If you spend any time at all developing your cities cash should not be a problem for most factions. A few factions will be bankrupt due to position or Mongols starting with crazy amount of armies but that is only 2 or 3 factions.

Sure in the first few turns it feels like you are scrapping the barrel for income but as soon as you get a few trade pacts going and make some merchants or improve your cities it improves and after a few more turns you have surplus income.

As for movement... I agree it seems too little especially for ships but the AI doesn't really know how to take advantage of the longer movements and wastes most of its time circling its own lands so it give you as the human player even larger advantage than you already have. Plus its a game and while in history an army could move much further than in game it also had to worry about disease, supply, paying its troops in hostile territory, politics at home etc which are absent from play here so I don't mind a compromise of shorter movement. I do get annoyed as Cumans and Kievan Rus though...

[Kulgan]

Your main problem is you are maintaining huge expensive armies, which is unnecesarry.

1) Why use 6 Feudal Footkights and 5 Catapults to take a rebel settlement which houses 3 spear militia?
Let's assume you build this army and march 5 turns to this rebel settlement. That's an upkeep of * numbers are fictional * 4000 Florins x5 = 20 000 Florins. Where in fact you could take this rebel settlement with two family members and no other troops. ( Siege/starve them to death )

2) These 20 000 Florins are used by players to invest in the economy, markets, ports, farms. Thus your income increases. Leaving you more money to now buy troops when going against the AI factions. Now it's time to buy your more expensive troops and use them properly.

3) Offcourse you already used up your good units and now you can't recruit a decent army.

Total war is a difficult game to play if you don't control the basics - but an easy game if you master all these aspects.

* Read up on making money - what to build first - trade etc.

* Then learn how to save : free upkeep for expensive troops - use cost effective troops in the field ( Why use a Feudal Foot Knight when you can have 3 light swordsmen instead )

* If you can't build your improvement in your money making towns you have to much troops - disband the expensive ones and invest in your economy, otherwise you WILL loose the game ( vs a real dumb AI )

Good luck....

[Gogolometro]

Kulkan you belive in K.I.S.S.
Good post!

[Point Blank]

Look, in SS RR/RC the AI does NOT get extra cash if it falls below zero - it gets a bonus (quite small too) per settlement, depending on settlement size and type.

Please check unit descriptions to work out which units get free upkeep and where, read RR guide in SS folder.

And SS RR/RC includes a file that allows faster movement option, read instructions.

If you can't manage your economy, blame yourself not the game. I think if it was as impossible as you say, we would have had a few more complaints by now. And if you think its hard now, try BGR IV.