The Huns and the Hsiung-Nu - One and the same?

[Argeus the Paladin]

There has been much debate over this, but I'd just want to put this out yet again.

The Huns who ravaged Rome and the Hsiung-Nu who kept the likes of Han Wudi busy. Were they one and the same, at least ethnically?

[bushbush]

no conclusive evidence I have seen so far.

with a number of serious defeats at the hands of Han, the xiongnu was split. The southern xiongnu eventually settled down and became assimilated to Han Chinese over the ages and disappeared in history as a distinctive group.

the northern xiongnu however, moved west and disappeared in Chinese history. There was however significant gap in the year when northern xiongnu left west and when the Huns began their own migration. It is therefore difficult to make a conclusive connection. Both Xiongnu and Huns left no written history, thus we can only speculate.

[hellheaven1987]

No, and Hsiung-Nu was never really destroyed by Han Dynasty, even came back again during Jin Dynasty.

[Argeus the Paladin]

That I concur. In general it is much agreed that Han Wudi's expeditions had been a strategical failure in the end, in which he squandered much of the wealthy his forefathers had garnered. Again, since the Han and the Hsiung-Nu intermarried for many generations, it gave some of the Hsiung-Nu claim to Han bloodline to jump into Chinese politics years after that.

But has there been, say, no DNA test or something along those lines? They did a DNA test and found out that 16 million people nowadays share an ancestor named Genghis Khan after all...

[hellheaven1987]

But has there been, say, no DNA test or something along those lines? They did a DNA test and found out that 16 million people nowadays share an ancestor named Genghis Khan after all...

That test is a failure, consider no one knows where Genghis Khan's tomb was.

I also read somewhere claim that all human being were originated from an African female 20 thousands years ago...

[bushbush]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8406506.stm

"Their findings support the hypothesis that Asia was populated primarily through a single migration event from the south."

the blood line thing is really really a social construct. The key is culture.

[Argeus the Paladin]

As absurd as that sounds, don't you think that it is entirely possible? After a crapton of migrations, mixed intermarriage and you-know-what-happened after all those years.

[bushbush]

As absurd as that sounds, don't you think that it is entirely possible? After a crapton of migrations, mixed intermarriage and you-know-what-happened after all those years.

sure, there are still six million mongols (fully assimilated anyways) living in China. There are probably more who are related to these people across the land.

[hellheaven1987]

As absurd as that sounds, don't you think that it is entirely possible? After a crapton of migrations, mixed intermarriage and you-know-what-happened after all those years.

Not really my history focus, which is military history. Unless interracial sex made tougher warriors, it really does not matter to me what gene those people had.

[Argeus the Paladin]

Although the phonetic evidence is inconclusive, new results from Central Asia might shift the balance in favor of a political and cultural link between the Xiongnu and the Huns. The Central Asian sources of the 4th century translated in both direction Xiongnu by Huns (in the Sogdian Ancient Letters, the Xiongnu in Northern China are named xwn, while in the Buddhist translations by Dharmarakhsa Huna of the Indian text is translated Xiongnu). The Hunnic cauldrons are similar to the Ordos Xiongnu ones. Moreover, both in Hungary and in the Ordos they were found buried in river bank.

Dunno whether this Wiki quote could help anyhow.

[bushbush]

Dunno whether this Wiki quote could help anyhow.

well, circumstantial evidence i guess.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Biggest proponents of this theory are generally Hungarians who like to say Hungarians are Huns.

[RollingWave]

Biggest proponents of this theory are generally Hungarians who like to say Hungarians are Huns.

That and the Koreans that claim that every notable figure / group in east asian (or even world) history are Koreans

Ahem, enough with the Korean jokes, the fact is that there are no direct evidence, but the stepp groups probably were connected one way or another over long periods of time, so it's hard to rule out anything, what seems more likely is a massive ripple effect. where part of the Xiong Nu moving west promped other stepp groups to be forced westward and a chain reaction happens. that might have eventually ended up with a Hun groups appearing.

[Petar]

Well, Magyars were part of the Hun confederacy, right? Doubt they were "ogiringal" Huns though.. actually no one knows who the ethnic Huns were and what their language was. That's the only thing known for certain. Maybe the Xiong Nu were the mass from which the Huns emerged. Maybe they mixed with some others, forming the Huns.. who knows. Nations emerge when a mass of people settles in a certain region and remain there for a while, forming a specific dialect and traditions.

People should dig more in Central Asia.. history seems to lose tracks there. Hope this changes in the future... "The truth is out there"

[cenkiss]

Biggest proponents of this theory are generally Hungarians who like to say Hungarians are Huns.

No.Turks are.In Turkish history lessons hsiung-nu and huns are told to be the same.

[torda]

Biggest proponents of this theory are generally Hungarians who like to say Hungarians are Huns.

Generally all of old medieval Hungarian chronicles has this statement and if You want You can check other foreign medieval chronicles where writers called them as Huns. So not some current Hungarians like to say it but many many others from medieval age!

[Kagemusha]

Its hard to prove one way or another since we dont have either Hsiung-Nu nor Huns to compare the two´s language and genetics. Only educated guesses can be done.

[white-wolf]

Generally all of old medieval Hungarian chronicles has this statement and if You want You can check other foreign medieval chronicles where writers called them as Huns. So not some current Hungarians like to say it but many many others from medieval age!

And Byzanties called them as Turks, while were calling Seljuks as Persians, lol.

[torda]

And Byzanties called them as Turks, while were calling Seljuks as Persians, lol.

yes Byzantines called them as Turks. But You can read other sources where they were called as Huns or Avars etc. And You know some researcher says Huns were Turk people!

What about Ottoman sources? For example: Tarihi Üngürüsz and Madzsar Tarihi?

[white-wolf]

yes Byzantines called them as Turks. But You can read other sources where they were called as Huns or Avars etc. And You know some researcher says Huns were Turk people!

What about Ottoman sources? For example: Tarihi Üngürüsz and Madzsar Tarihi?

Slow mate, I did not say anything about Hungarians (Majars) relationship with Turkic people. I just point what Byzantines call Hungarians and Seljuks. It was just a note.