suggestions

[legio_XX]

lol true, but at this point, so close to its collapse and tribes moving in at will and settle on the imperial borders, im sure aetius was more concerned with keeping strong tribles such as franks and lombards in check, and to keep them as buffers, that i dontthink he even cared anymore about the rhine,

I agree with you at that point. I thought that the franks had been allys with the romans during this time, im sure he had set up a buffer with them?

[Constantius]

The article I have just finished reading, argues that the Hunnic horde in Roman/European history, was not a mounted horde at all. The one mentioned in the sources was one that lived on the steppe, where pastoral nomads could continue their life style. By the time the Huns had settled on the Pannonian plain, the assumed mounted horde had adapted, to the use of infantry. The geography alone, the terrain is broken and the pasture is less and livestock's harder to feed.
Also the sources which mention the Hunnic engagements, do not mention masses of horsemen, as they had when describing earlier raids. For example the raids of 395 in Mesopotamia and Syria from the north. Two letters of St Jerome refer to horses and horsemen, the first in 396, is based on Ammianus Marcllinus, and wrongly takes the small size and motley appearance of steppe ponies, as proof of their inability to defeat, the stall fed Roman charger. The second from 399, comments on speed and mobility. The article rightly points out that the grass lands of Northern Syria and Mesopotamia, were easily capable of supporting up to 325,000 horsemen, as in the Mongol raids of 1299-1300, so its not surprising to see Hunnic horseman in the east.
One hint off the Hunnic adaption to European geographical conditions at the turn of the century, in an passage by Sozomen, he describes how the bishop Theotimus of Tomis, warding off an attempt to rope him in by a Hun, the passage does not mention the Hun being mounted , by does mention he was leaning on a large shield.
The article goes on to talk of the defeat of Radagaisus's Goths by Stilicho and Uldin, its always assumed this was due to Hunnic cavalry, but contemporary sources to not seem to feel the need to mention them.
In the 440's at the failed siege of Asemus, the defenders were able to ambush the returning Huns, it is difficult for fortress defenders to ambush a mass of horseman. It is also difficult for a large mounted army to feed their horses, if in an area for any length of time, to maintain a siege.
The geography itself would imply the need to adapt to their new home, on the Pannonian plain, apart from being tiny, in comparison to the Mongolian steppe, it would of been part marsh and partly forested. In short it could not sustain anything like the numbers of horses the Huns had used in the east.
The author asks the question "How did the Huns respond to the new conditions West of the Carpathians? They began to resemble their neighbours !The reason I felt the need to make this point, the steppe tactics comments and Hunnic siege warfare, that I noticed mentioned above, I think its fairly safe to assume the Huns adapted to european warefare quite quickly and as was correctly pointed out by somebody the Hunnic empire was a collection of peoples under Hunnic hegemony.

[VirIlluster]

very interesting information constantius, i apreciate certain clarifications there on hun warfare

[Aethelstan]

Yes, thank you constantius for this interesting post.

[VirIlluster]

well frankish king clovis, was a thorn in aetius's side, he had to fight it out a couple times with him, so yeah, idk about allies, but forcefully kept down, after death of aetius, franks move in and occupy new lands unoposed

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Merovich was the first allied frankish king, and he was Aetius adopted son sooo... At this point the Rhine was pretty secure, with the salian franks in cologne but besides that the romans had complete control of the rhine situation. Aetius had the Army to drive the barbarians out, but he kept them to use them to take the brunt of attila's attack, and keep the romans on the flanks fighting the easy enemies, so he could take the huns after they had been weakened, and maybe possibly to swing around and start fighting his allies...

Also, the Troops Aegidius had were all armored veteran troops, not Limitanei or militias. That applies to all of Aetius' field Armies. You must remember that the Visigoths were losing even theough they had a force of about 20000-30000 men

I also figured out why roman swords were so highly valued, but ill save that for some other thread.

[VirIlluster]

At this point the Rhine was pretty secure, with the salian franks in cologne but besides that the romans had complete control of the rhine situation.


I also figured out why roman swords were so highly valued, but ill save that for some other thread.

Frankish Buffers =), why waste good 12k troops when allies can take all the hits, bam.

What's funny is when Aetius was killed, GoodBye most "allies".

[legio_XX]

Frankish Buffers =), why waste good 12k troops when allies can take all the hits, bam.

What's funny is when Aetius was killed, GoodBye most "allies".

very true.

Even though Aetius back stabed other romans and such he was romes last hope and one of the best generals of his time.

[Aethelstan]

Merovich ... was Aetius adopted son

Never heard about that before.
Common knowledge though? Do you have any sources at hand?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

At hand... Wikipedia, Aetius Adopted him in 450 in support of him as candidate for frankish throne, attila supported the other guy, I'll post more.

EDIT: There's not much on him... Gregory of Tours makes some mentions, but states it was unlikely he was Chlodilo's son
EDIT: Clodio was defeated at Vicus Helena, in 448, and the Frankish Expansion to the Somme River in 431 was entirely reversed by Aetius and Majoran in 1 battle.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Considering he had no defeats except Rimini and was always outnumbered, I'd say he was the best Roman General
The only person he backstabbed was Bonifacius

[VirIlluster]

Considering he had no defeats except Rimini and was always outnumbered, I'd say he was the best Roman General
The only person he backstabbed was Bonifacius

being the Ultimus romanorum has its advantages, like being able to do whatever u think is necessary, and i posted my bonifatius views in the other thread, In the African campaign one i think, but yeah Boni was a fail.

[VirIlluster]

Forgot mention, you know what would be hilarious? if whent his mod comes out and people start downloading, soon as they click on download link you have that rick astley video popup, cool way to rickroll thousands.

[Ace_General]

I just read a few books about the late roman empire and actually Odacar and Theodoric lived all there lives within the boundaries of rome, and actually upheld roman tradition and restored alot of stuff and brought peace and stability to Italy

The thing that really destroyed the late roman empire society was not the so called "barbarian invaders" but justinians supposed massively destructive wars of liberation

[VirIlluster]

I just read a few books about the late roman empire and actually Odacar and Theodoric lived all there lives within the boundaries of rome, and actually upheld roman tradition and restored alot of stuff and brought peace and stability to Italy

The thing that really destroyed the late roman empire society was not the so called "barbarian invaders" but justinians supposed massively destructive wars of liberation

Here probably some thoughts of those 2 guys,

Theoderic: ok whew, i caused widespread devastation in gaul and italy, now lets heal stuff, (dies at catalonian plains) last words: "dam"

Odacar: "HMmm, okay lets depose the emperor and bring peace, yes yes i know im the one fighting and causing devastation, shut up voices in my head, !" " Hm, wonder if Goths will go to war with me for stealing their burger recipe. :/"

[Ace_General]

Here probably some thoughts of those 2 guys,

Theoderic: ok whew, i caused widespread devastation in gaul and italy, now lets heal stuff, (dies at catalonian plains) last words: "dam"

Odacar: "HMmm, okay lets depose the emperor and bring peace, yes yes i know im the one fighting and causing devastation, shut up voices in my head, !" " Hm, wonder if Goths will go to war with me for stealing their burger recipe. :/"

Theodoric was roughly 80-100 years after catalonian plains

And Odacar was a ROMAN general who lived his life in ROMAN territory, he was just as roman as Marcus Aurilus (who was a Spaniard) and most other emperors after the Julio-Claudians

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

We know that, Justinian caused more damage to rome than the goths in 410

[Aethelstan]

At hand... Wikipedia, Aetius Adopted him in 450 in support of him as candidate for frankish throne, attila supported the other guy, I'll post more.

Well I read around a bit cause of interest in never stumbled into this adoption you mentioned before.
Still I could find nothing. Wiki isnt something I trust to much, but even there I couldnt find it?
Merovech is a largly legendary figure, who might have not existed at all or as a rather different person.
The whole adoption story seems strange to me. To what are you refering? Is there just some mentionijng with fredegar or gregor I may have missed?

Theodoric was roughly 80-100 years after catalonian plains

? He´s most certainly refering to the visigoth kinf Theoderich which is reported to have died int the battle against Attila.

And Odacar was a ROMAN general

I guess I understand at what you are aiming and I support that, cause I see Odoacer as highly romanized. But stated as this it is missleading.
Odoacer still was a germanic mercenary from the Sciri (Skiren).
That is a difference to an origin from a largly romanized province like "spain".

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Gregory of Tours may have mentioned it. I read it in the Wikipedia thread about Flavius Aetius. I think they removed that part though... It would probably have been mentioned in the Gallic Chronicle of 452 if it happened. I'm gonna get that book soon so I'll look into it there.

[Constantius]

Gregory of Tours may have mentioned it. I read it in the Wikipedia thread about Flavius Aetius. I think they removed that part though... It would probably have been mentioned in the Gallic Chronicle of 452 if it happened. I'm gonna get that book soon so I'll look into it there.

Is it Gregory of Tours or not ? If you think yes I will read through as much as possible, because this is quite a statement, but don't waste my time with conjecture again