Adrianople and other late roman battles

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

This thread is to continue our discussion about late roman battles

[Valentinian Victor]

Peter Donnelly's article on Adrianopolis closely mirror's my own research although I have some other theories that provide more information about the events during the battle, especially around why Valen's entered into negotiations with Fritigern even though he was preparing to do battle.

[Constantius]

Peter Donnelly's article on Adrianopolis closely mirror's my own research although I have some other theories that provide more information about the events during the battle, especially around why Valen's entered into negotiations with Fritigern even though he was preparing to do battle.

To which article are you referring ,so that i may read it .Do you have access to JSTOR ?

• The Battle of Adrianople: A Reconsideration
• Thomas S. Burns
• Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte, Vol. 22, No. 2 (2nd Qtr., 1973), pp. 336-345
• Published by: Franz Steiner Verlag
• Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4435342

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

That's Interesting. What are your theories?

[Valentinian Victor]

That's Interesting. What are your theories?

When my book finally gets printed your have to buy a copy to find out! No freebies here today I'm afraid.

[Gäiten]

What do you want to discuss about?

Just about Adrianople?

Compared to their earlier campaigns / battles the late Romans had to face a far greater number of people who were more advanced in weaponry, strategies and tactics than in earlier eras.

I think it is an interesting detail, that they were more successful when they stayed defensive than on fighting on offensives.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

This is kinda for any battle, but I have a forum for chalons in TERROR BARBARORUM

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Just a question: Anyone know where I can get The Fall Of The Roman Empire by Arthur Ferrill?

[Constantius]

Try amazon ,but also while your there try Peter Heather :The Fall of the Roman Empire and Adrian Goldsworthy:The fall of the West and Thomas S Burns : Barbarians within the Gates of Rome: Roman Military Policy and the Barbarians

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Okay, thanks.

[Valentinian Victor]

Anyone looking at the Battle of Adrianopolis needs to examine the Battle of Ad Salices. Many authors and historians who have examined Adrianopolis have not really looked at depth at Ad Salices, yet, that battle was a premonition of things to come. It also indirectly lead to the defeat at Adrianopolis as many of the troops that would have been used at Adrianopolis were either killed or injured and could not take part. It's also probably true that many of the units that survived that battle would have been both understrength and not fully recruited into by the time of Adrianopolis.

[ray243]

Okay, thanks.

Try this as well. Much better than most Osprey books in my opinion.

http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Europe.../dp/0198152418

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Interesting... I'll look it up
It says the battle came to a draw, and that both sides took heavy casualties. Also, the Defeat at Adrianople was caused by the fact the Romans had to march 9 miles to the battlefield and stnd there in 100 degrees for a couple of hours

[Valentinian Victor]

Interesting... I'll look it up
It says the battle came to a draw, and that both sides took heavy casualties. Also, the Defeat at Adrianople was caused by the fact the Romans had to march 9 miles to the battlefield and stnd there in 100 degrees for a couple of hours

Did you notice who commanded the army at Ad Salices? This battle should have sent a very clear message to the Romans that the Goth's were a very dangerous foe and that fighting them at any kind of odds was going to be difficult at best. Hence the reason why Richomere and Victor counselled Valens against fighting the Goth's until Gratian arrived with his army. However, Sebastian was able to win over Valens as he managed to defeat a large band of Goth's with quite a small force. But, you do not need much of an army to defeat someone when you achieve total surprise!

[Valentinian Victor]

For those who have the belief that the force Valens commanded at Adrianopolis was made up of raw recruites and sub-standard troops I offer this from Ammianus-

'1 In those same days Valens was troubled for two reasons: first, by the news that the Lentienses had been defeated; secondly, because Sebastianus wrote from time to time exaggerating his exploits. He therefore marched forth from Melanthias, being eager to do some glorious deed to equal his young nephew, whose valiant exploits consumed him with envy.He had under his command a force made up of varying elements, but one neither contemptible, nor unwarlike; for he had joined with them also a large number of veterans, among whom were other officers of high rank and Trajanus, shortly before a commander-in‑chief, whom he had recalled to active service.' AMM Bk XXXI 12, 1

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I believe that it was made up of new recruits, but they were still heavily armorred and well traied, just inexperienced. I don't believe the entire army was inexperienced as I belive there were plenty of experinced troops at the battle...

[Gäiten]

IIRC Valns had many hardened veterans from the Persian campaigns under his command, so the Roman field army was an elite.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

A lot of Roman troops deserted before the battle so they did take a loss in experienced soldiers.

[Valentinian Victor]

A lot of Roman troops deserted before the battle so they did take a loss in experienced soldiers.

Agreed, all Roman armies from the beginning to the end of the Roman Empire period suffered from desertions and their theoretical on paper strength never met their real field army strength. However, that also applied to their opponents armies so no differenct there. Most desertions would not have been by experienced soldiers, they would have been by raw recruits and hastily raised units.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I believe that to probably encourage some of the less experienced troops that they would have dispersed the experienced troops out amognst the ordos.