Barbarian archers - Cheap, disposable light infantry?

[Argeus the Paladin]

I just realized today that Sweboz has the cheapest yet still no less awesome combination from the beginning: Skutjanz + German Longhair Bodyguard Infantry in a 3/17 ratio. The distinguishing feature of the German Skutjanz from the Greek Toxotai is that They. Have. More. Melee. Attack. Than. Roman. Principes.

Thoughts?

[magraev]

Well they are wielding a spear (kinda crappy weapon against infantry) and no shield and would be cut to pieces by any decent infantry unit. They are useful in that they are not totally at the mercy of light cavalry, but other than that they are no better than skirmishers and the like.

[Argeus the Paladin]

Isn't that what the 3 FM are for?

[Mediolanicus]

The numbers you can see don't tell the whole story. Trust me, the melee attack of any Roman infantry is much better.

[Entropy Judge]

Especially since the Romans also have much better Defense. Skudjonez have 12 Spear, C Principes have 14 Spear, and P Principes have 11 Sword; Skudjonez have 1 Armor and 8 Skill, and come 30/unit - C Principes have 9 Armor, 4 Shield, and 9 Skill, and come 40/unit - and P Principes have 12/4/8 and come 40/unit. Not even counting the 5-point Morale deficiency.

In short: Using Skudjonez as melee troops in anything other than extremis is burning a bank.

[torongill]

If I remember correctly spear attribute gives +8 attack vs cavalry and -8 vs infantry. So in fact you have 4 attack and 9 defence vs. 11 attack and 24 defence. I wonder what's the lethality of their respective weapons? I think it might be in favor of the principes as well. They can, in their original, unmodified form, be used to engage pursuing cavalry and buy some time, but nothing more. They're archers and you should use them as such

[Kival]

That's true for the spearattribute (at least it gives a -4 malus), but the units have light-spear attribute, which does only add a +4/8? defensebonus against cavalry and no malus on attack! against infantry only one in defense. There is a thread in the .org where it was discussed as a bug, in earlier versions of EB spearunits had the spear attribute.

EDIT: The lethality of spear units is usually higher than that of short sword units.

[Entropy Judge]

If I remember correctly spear attribute gives +8 attack vs cavalry and -8 vs infantry. So in fact you have 4 attack and 9 defence vs. 11 attack and 24 defence. I wonder what's the lethality of their respective weapons? I think it might be in favor of the principes as well. They can, in their original, unmodified form, be used to engage pursuing cavalry and buy some time, but nothing more. They're archers and you should use them as such

Interestingly enough, all three of them have .13 Lethality.

Perhaps I'd better rephrase myself again.

What I am trying to say is not "Germanic Archers beat Principes" but rather they are insanely powerful for their laughable 417/114 price tag.

But they aren't. True, the basic Melee Attack seems powerful for a cheap archer, but the only thing they can reasonably hope to defeat is a unit of Light Cavalry. Their Defense is far too low for them to be fielded as Light Infantry, and the Defense Penalty (if the .org is correct) simply hammers them even worse.

Sure they have an Attack of 12 - but compare that to the Germanic Levy Spearmen: Attack 14, Charge 6; Defense Values of 1 Armor, 3 Shield, 11 Skill; 60/unit, 10 Morale; 859/215 price tag. Roughly twice as expensive, but an increase in attack (and Charge), better Defense (Shield and Skill), more men, and better morale (Skudjonez have 8).

[torongill]

the thing I remember about light spear was that it has the same properties as spear, except lower pushing ability.

[Kival]

the thing I remember about light spear was that it has the same properties as spear, except lower pushing ability.

Here is the link to the thread in the .org. There is also a complete EDU guide, which says:

• light_spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to defense vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to defense vs. infantry. Offers less pushing power than spear.
• spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to attack vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to attack vs. infantry. Offers more pushing power than light_spear. Units with "spear" attribute tend to lose cohesion and break lines (due to the extreme pushing power) with undesired results, so use is advised only with cohesive formations/attributes like short_pike, shield_wall, phalanx etc.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88859

[Argeus the Paladin]

Perhaps I'd better rephrase myself again.

What I am trying to say is not "Germanic Archers beat Principes" but rather they are insanely powerful for their laughable 417/114 price tag.