How is the Buddhist Samsara logically possible?

[Sensei Kiisu]

Just something that came up in our P&R class today, about the Samsara being eternal and never ending -

however - if things are being taken out of it constantly, by those who reach Nirvana, then surely, it will deplete because it is stated that nothing is added to the Samsara, however - it is also said that it can never deplete.

If we put 10 marbles in a hoop,

We remove one of those marbles (we say the person has achieved Nirvana, so therefore can escape the constant cycle of rebirth),

therefore there are now 9 marbles in the hoop, - and another, and another until there are no more marbles in the hoop, thus ending the constant cycle of rebirth, and thus Samsara;

Now - every time I tried to view this point across, it was rejected, and the answer I repeatedly received was that it is eternal, end of.

I have an open mind usually, though this doesn't seem logically possible, so any Buddhists out there who can explain to me the concept - it'd be greatly appreciated,

Thanks ^^

[Whatacad]

Samsara is an illusion. Wake up and realize it isn't there. And neither are you.

[Denny Crane!]

Samsara is a personal journey. More spiritually inclined buddhists believe that it is the process of moving from life to life, but not like reincarnation. The transfer of a soul is more like hindu traditions. Some buddhists, a minority like myself believe it to be the transition of mental states.

[SigniferOne]

It appears then that you can believe anything you choose to believe. What objectively bounds you to any particular interpretation?

[Denny Crane!]

Actually Stephen Batchelor for one has done quite a lot of research into it. As research goes it has been compared to the search for the historical Jesus that dispelled so many myths about it.

But yes I can believe anything I wish to believe, however a great deal of buddhas writings confirm what I believe. Not in any special religious sense, because in his own words he was just another guy, but in the same way I can believe an especially good philosopher or psychologist.

[Amorphos]

therefore there are now 9 marbles in the hoop, - and another, and another until there are no more marbles in the hoop, thus ending the constant cycle of rebirth, and thus Samsara

So are you asking what happens if everyone makes it to nirvana and hence all the marbles are gone from the hoop? This seams similar to if say the sun went supernova, there would be no more earth and hence no more samsara for humans.

The usual reply is that there are other realms and levels we get reborn on [which can be argued against, but lets not bother here].

For your problem I guess samsara would still exist but be empty ~ if I understood your question properly. However it may be the case that humans will continue to be born irrespective of weather they all make it to nirvana. We may see this in a similar context to the mathematical problems of rebirth and reincarnation ~ where you have differing populations hence more souls are needed when there is a glut. So it would seam that earthly affairs would continue and people would still get born and then have to find their way to nirvana. However samsara cannot be eternal as that has an infinite value, which in turn nirvana has also, and we wouldn’t want them to be the same would we.

[Copperknickers II]

Samsara is infinite, surely? Then no matter how much you add or take away, you can't change it.

[Amorphos]

If samsara is infinite and nirvana is too then we have a problem, however I don’t think it can be thought of in that way…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara

samsara is simply the product of karma. in which case the sessation of karma in people would mean the end of samsara for humans [except for points made above].

[Squiggle]

Samsara is infinite, surely? Then no matter how much you add or take away, you can't change it.

Actual infinite can't exist. If there are an infinite amount of preceding events to this one, then logically this moment should have never occurred. The space time continuum can not truly be infinite, period. The best use of infinite one can make is a presumption of infinity, essentially "its so big I cant comprehend its start or end", in which case- regardless of weather you can comprehend it or not- samsara must have a point in time in which it runs out.

[Denny Crane!]

Actual infinite can't exist. If there are an infinite amount of preceding events to this one, then logically this moment should have never occurred. The space time continuum can not truly be infinite, period. The best use of infinite one can make is a presumption of infinity, essentially "its so big I cant comprehend its start or end", in which case- regardless of weather you can comprehend it or not- samsara must have a point in time in which it runs out.

As I said the debate is fruitless. Samsara is not a thing that can be measured. What do compare it to a jug of water?

I do wonder if perhaps a good article could help shed some light on the concept of samsara. Here is a brief definition and the next is an excellent article.

The Sanskrit word samsara means "journeying." In Buddhism, as well as in Hinduism and Jainism, samsara is defined as a cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.

Samsara is sometimes thought of as a circumstance or an illusion. In Buddhism it is also thought of as the process by which karma causes rebirth.

Samsara is sometimes depicted as the opposite of Nirvana. However, the Mahayana school of Buddhism views both Nirvana and Samsara as mental representations. To one who appreciates the true nature of the world, Nirvana and Samsara are not different from one another.

http://www.esolibris.com/articles/buddhism/samsara.php


Is samsara a place, or is it the process by which we create and re-create our own suffering? An essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live -- the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too.



The play and creativity in the process can sometimes be enjoyable. In fact, it would be perfectly innocuous if it didn't entail so much suffering. The worlds we create keep caving in and killing us. Moving into a new world requires effort: not only the pains and risks of taking birth, but also the hard knocks -- mental and physical -- that come from going through childhood into adulthood, over and over again. The Buddha once asked his monks, "Which do you think is greater: the water in the oceans or the tears you've shed while wandering on?" His answer: the tears. Think of that the next time you gaze at the ocean or play in its waves.

In addition to creating suffering for ourselves, the worlds we create feed off the worlds of others, just as theirs feed off ours. In some cases the feeding may be mutually enjoyable and beneficial, but even then the arrangement has to come to an end. More typically, it causes harm to at least one side of the relationship, often to both. When you think of all the suffering that goes into keeping just one person clothed, fed, sheltered, and healthy -- the suffering both for those who have to pay for these requisites, as well as those who have to labor or die in their production -- you see how exploitative even the most rudimentary process of world-building can be.

This is why the Buddha tried to find the way to stop samsara-ing. Once he had found it, he encouraged others to follow it, too. Because samsara-ing is something that each of us does, each of us has to stop it him or her self alone. If samsara were a place, it might seem selfish for one person to look for an escape, leaving others behind. But when you realize that it's a process, there's nothing selfish about stopping it at all. It's like giving up an addiction or an abusive habit. When you learn the skills needed to stop creating your own worlds of suffering, you can share those skills with others so that they can stop creating theirs. At the same time, you'll never have to feed off the worlds of others, so to that extent you're lightening their load as well.

It's true that the Buddha likened the practice for stopping samsara to the act of going from one place to another: from this side of a river to the further shore. But the passages where he makes this comparison often end with a paradox: the further shore has no "here," no "there," no "in between." From that perspective, it's obvious that samsara's parameters of space and time were not the pre-existing context in which we wandered. They were the result of our wandering.

For someone addicted to world-building, the lack of familiar parameters sounds unsettling. But if you're tired of creating incessant, unnecessary suffering, you might want to give it a try. After all, you could always resume building if the lack of "here" or "there" turned out to be dull. But of those who have learned how to break the habit, no one has ever felt tempted to samsara again.

Copyright © 2002 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Actual infinite can't exist. If there are an infinite amount of preceding events to this one, then logically this moment should have never occurred. The space time continuum can not truly be infinite, period. The best use of infinite one can make is a presumption of infinity, essentially "its so big I cant comprehend its start or end", in which case- regardless of weather you can comprehend it or not- samsara must have a point in time in which it runs out.

there is an infinite number of numbers

[Squiggle]

there is an infinite number of numbers

Yeah, the only capable way of reaching actual infinite is with abstract concepts such as numbers. Should have clarified that.

[Amorphos]

Actual infinite can't exist. If there are an infinite amount of preceding events to this one, then logically this moment should have never occurred. The space time continuum can not truly be infinite, period.

Unless you get a time e.g. at the beginning of the big bang, when there are no cardinal objects [like particles], then you have an infinity as there is nothing to define any limits. You don’t get an infinite ‘amount’ of periods of time, time has no such cardinality. why cant actual infinite exist?...

Yeah, the only capable way of reaching actual infinite is with abstract concepts such as numbers.

Or if we view infinity as an object then numbers cannot represent it any more than they can anything else, infinity cannot be represented by metaphors.

See my objections here #3.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...83#post6875283

[Denny Crane!]

We can't make quantitative judgements like ''it is infinite'' because there is nothing to measure rendering that line of enquiry defunct.

[Angrychris]

Doesnt have to be logical or it would be scientific

[removeduser_4536284751384]

if there are an infinite number of marbles

and we take one away

we still have an infinite number of marbles

[Denny Crane!]

I think the point is that Samsara is merely an abstract conceptualisation of a process our minds go through.

I can't for the life of me think what infinity has to do with that. I've contemplated asking for the thread to be split, much head scratching to figure out if there is two different topics going on here.

[Squiggle]

I think the point is that Samsara is merely an abstract conceptualisation of a process our minds go through.

I can't for the life of me think what infinity has to do with that. I've contemplated asking for the thread to be split, much head scratching to figure out if there is two different topics going on here.

Because for many Samsara is actually endless rebirth and actually endless death, and obviously such a notion brings up the question of infinite.

[Amorphos]

You mean where did the singularity affect come from in respect to the big bang? Well, I'd argue God, Atheists would argue "Don't have a clue yet". What do you think?

I think it comes from infinity which constantly tries to express itself, and that is the ‘motor’ of creation in short. Weather or not infinity ‘is’ god is another thing, it certainly isn’t anthropomorphic, but I can see it is omniscient etc. how would you define the singularity prior to particles being formed? Here’s something I been thinking about [off topic], why wouldn’t it be a ‘perfect explosion’? you know how we imagine an explosion as being erratic, well that’s due to exterior factors like air density etc, the big bang wouldn’t have that.

Edit: In regards to what time, literally no time. Whatever is the cause has to be something beyond the fabric of reality, time, and human understanding.

Unless time too is infinite, but yes, reality has to be greater than what lies within it. Nothing is beyond understanding, something simply have no point of differentiation like infinity, but we can understand it in its own terms.

Just my poor attempt at describing it.

Not really, a continuum is a difficult concept and does imply infinite duration.

Reality is what it is, the Universe works on some generally rational principles and constants, and the binding force of it all is God.

What is the ultimate level of reality, a oneness ~ as it cannot be a twoness or more as those elements would lay within a greater reality ~ a oneness. Why define it further and call it good when all it can be is a oneness, period?

--------------------------

I think the point is that Samsara is merely an abstract conceptualisation of a process our minds go through.

Surely minds are in a space that has to be defined?

I can't for the life of me think what infinity has to do with that. I've contemplated asking for the thread to be split, much head scratching to figure out if there is two different topics going on here.

Not sure if its two, nirvana and samsara are planes that need an objective or spatial nature as well as the mental.

We can keep it to the mental for now if you so wish?

[Denny Crane!]

Because for many Samsara is actually endless rebirth and actually endless death, and obviously such a notion brings up the question of infinite.

As the article I posted pointed out, Samsara seems more likely to refer to mental states and our own illusions than to some kind of spirituality and spiritual journey which for the most part was considered unimportant by the Buddha. This is a fundamental concept of Buddhism, the key is to focus on things we can know and the moments we experience than living in some kind of self made mental prison where we obsess over the unknowable.

surely our minds are in a space that has to be defined?

Has to be defined? Definitely not. Might be fun to idly speculate or of use in other disciplines, but I'd say pretty unimportant as far as buddhism goes.

Not sure if its two, nirvana and samsara are planes that need an objective or spatial nature as well as the mental.

We can keep it to the mental for now if you so wish?

I'm not sure if anything exists outside of the mental, that there is anything in Buddhism that alludes to it and that even if there were that there would be any use in contemplating it since it will just raise a set of answers about which we ultimately cannot even draw clues never mind answers.