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Thread: What happened to Italy?

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  1. #1

    Default What happened to Italy?

    First and foremost I admit I am somewhat of a Romanophile. And secondly, this question, inspired by the 'what happened to Iraq' thread, has been bugging me for some time now.

    After the glorious Antiquity, the still-glorious-but-not-as-much Middle Age and Renaissance, Rome and Italy have been on the decline, until crap hit the fan during the two World Wars. It came to me that Italy as a world power never came back, and in its place the aged and economically stagnant (comparing to the rest of Europe) country, the Old Man of Europe it is today.

    What are the reasons behind this? Incompetence leadership? Lack of focus on R&D? Or what?

    Discuss.

  2. #2
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    i blame versace.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Rome=/=Italy


  4. #4
    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argeus the Paladin View Post
    First and foremost I admit I am somewhat of a Romanophile. And secondly, this question, inspired by the 'what happened to Iraq' thread, has been bugging me for some time now.

    After the glorious Antiquity, the still-glorious-but-not-as-much Middle Age and Renaissance, Rome and Italy have been on the decline, until crap hit the fan during the two World Wars. It came to me that Italy as a world power never came back, and in its place the aged and economically stagnant (comparing to the rest of Europe) country, the Old Man of Europe it is today.

    What are the reasons behind this? Incompetence leadership? Lack of focus on R&D? Or what?

    Discuss.
    Southern Italy dragged the prosperous North into the abyss after the reunification. I don't think that it has ever truly recovered.
    Client of the honorable Gertrudius!

  5. #5
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Berlusconi screw Italy, don't you know that??
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  6. #6

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevins View Post
    Southern Italy dragged the prosperous North into the abyss after the reunification. I don't think that it has ever truly recovered.
    Which was after the prosperous North dragged Southern Italy and Sicily (quite unwillingly) into reunification, thanks to Garibaldi's "gift."
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  7. #7
    DAVIDE's Avatar QVID MELIVS ROMA?
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Which was after the prosperous North dragged Southern Italy and Sicily (quite unwillingly) into reunification, thanks to Garibaldi's "gift."
    It is more than this. Forgetting the part where Piedmont unified the various local entities with fake referendums (see Venice for example), Piedmont collapsed south Italy economy forever. Naples for example, during Borbons was one of the richest areas in Europe but his richness has been dismantled totally, moving the factories and labs to the north. Sicily, once the granary of Europe suffered the high taxation imposed by Piedmont (the so called law of macinato), with the result of gigantic latifundia not harvested or plowed, because farmers became so poor they had not money to plow. Also, Piedmont imposed a unique coinage for all the peninsula, not being able to change all the money of Italians had with the new value. Italians gave back their local coinage and from here to there they discovered to be poor and without any money etc. etc. etc.

    Piedmont was just interested in having a huge mass of land for political reason

  8. #8

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argeus the Paladin View Post
    First and foremost I admit I am somewhat of a Romanophile. And secondly, this question, inspired by the 'what happened to Iraq' thread, has been bugging me for some time now.

    After the glorious Antiquity, the still-glorious-but-not-as-much Middle Age and Renaissance, Rome and Italy have been on the decline, until crap hit the fan during the two World Wars. It came to me that Italy as a world power never came back, and in its place the aged and economically stagnant (comparing to the rest of Europe) country, the Old Man of Europe it is today.

    What are the reasons behind this? Incompetence leadership? Lack of focus on R&D? Or what?

    Discuss.
    You have the wrong imporession here. First of all Italy is not the only developped country that has an ageing population. Look at Japan. Ageing population is not a sign of decline but it's a problem of very advanced countries.

    Also you have the wrong impression about Italian economy. Italy it's an economic powerhouse of Europe, of course it has some problems but it's far of the picture you present here.

    Italy was not successfull in 1900's as an imperialist country, it's true, but this is how you measure the worth of Italy, looking at failed imperialism? All European countries were failed imperialist in 1900's, some sooner, some later. I bet you consider Germany a success because it had such a power that almost won the two World Wars. It wasn't a success, it was the greatest failure because it lost and the consequences were catastrophic for Germany.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Well, please allow me to clarify. As this article shows, Italy is regarded as The Sick Old Man of Europe:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe

    In May 2005, The Economist attributed this title to Italy, covering "The real sick man of Europe". This refers to Italy's structural and political difficulties thought to inhibit economic reforms to relaunch economic growth.
    Precisely from here:

    http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ory_id=3987219

    For a while, the country's ills have seemed merely part of those of the wider euro zone, whose poor performance has reflected the sluggishness of its three core economies, Germany, France and Italy, which account for 70% of euro-area GDP. All three suffer from Europe's familiar troubles of excessive labour- and product-market rigidities, too high public spending and taxes, and too much regulation. Yet last week's news that Italy fell back into recession in the first quarter of 2005, while France and Germany picked up, suggests that Italy has even graver problems than the bigger two...

    o wonder businessmen in Italy are feeling ever more pessimistic. Even as they struggle to cope with a somnolent economy, they can also point to a string of recent steps that have undermined their own confidence as well as that of foreign investors (see article). Things began to go visibly wrong two years ago when trouble (still unresolved) erupted at Fiat, the country's flagship carmaker, and when Italy's retail banks arrogantly sold high-risk bonds to their customers as if they were safe. The bonds were issued by Argentina and by two Italian firms, Cirio and Parmalat. The country defaulted, while the two food groups went bust. The fraud that brought down Parmalat showed that Italy's system of corporate governance was rotten. The regulatory response, though quick at first, became sluggish once politicians thought a crisis had been averted. Although Parmalat has been rescued, prosecution of those who nearly destroyed it has been less than zealous.

    Corporate governance continues to suffer big reverses, none bigger than the ousting last week by the government of Vittorio Mincato, boss of Eni, the world's sixth-largest oil-and-gas company. Not only was this talented and apolitical manager replaced by somebody who knows nothing of the industry (Paolo Scaroni, boss of Enel, Italy's electrical utility); but also that ignorance is now shared by Eni's entire board. The political nature of Mr Scaroni's appointment suggests that the government considers any company in which it holds a stake as essentially state-owned and therefore susceptible to political direction. This reverses a slow trend for such companies to become independent of the political graft and favours that once made Italy pay a big premium to borrow in international markets. Mr Scaroni now has a chance to prove that he can resist political interference, just as Mr Mincato did. But Eni's shareholders will be watching nervously to see how the company behaves under its new management. Similarly, foreign investors are waiting to see whether the extraordinary saga of two attempted takeovers of Italian banks by foreign ones ends happily (ie, the foreigners win) or in farce. At this point, the outcome remains hazy, but the Bank of Italy and Consob, Italy's stockmarket regulator, have so far displayed a disturbing mixture of protectionism and sloth.
    And yes the article does call Berlusconi out for screwing up Italy

  10. #10
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    ciaoo
    too many hot girls I guess
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  11. #11

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    ciaoo
    too many hot girls I guess
    All my friends who were in Italy (and other Western European countries) said the hotest girls are the Eastern European ones. Also they said that Naples is a filthier city than any Romanian town.
    However I mantain that Italy as a whole is a pretty advanced country with a solid economy so this impression that Italy is going down is just not true.
    Last edited by CiviC; March 11, 2010 at 07:44 AM.

  12. #12
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    All my friends who were in Italy (and other Western European countries) said the hotest girls are the Eastern European ones. Also they said that Naples is a filthier city than any Romanian town.
    However I mantain that Italy as a whole is a pretty advanced country with a solid economy so this impression that Italy is going down is just not true.
    there is a very visible difference between south and northern regions.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  13. #13
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    All my friends who were in Italy (and other Western European countries) said the hotest girls are the Eastern European ones. Also they said that Naples is a filthier city than any Romanian town.
    However I mantain that Italy as a whole is a pretty advanced country with a solid economy so this impression that Italy is going down is just not true.
    Romanian village:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Naples:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Your friends were wrong, or have lived extremely sheltered lives
    Last edited by Manco; March 11, 2010 at 08:50 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    Romanian village:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Naples:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Your friends were wrong, or have lived extremely sheltered lives
    Firstly you don't know the difference betweeen town and village.
    Secondly my firends are not illegal immigrants but visitors like tourists or sailors.
    Thirdly, a street in Naples


  15. #15

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    Romanian village:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Naples:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Your friends were wrong, or have lived extremely sheltered lives

    No, Naples is a mess atm, theres a garbage strike, so no garbage has been getting picked up, and its been piling in the streets for months now.

  16. #16

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Well you could argue that the Austrians, French and Spanish have as much a role to play in Italy's failure as do the Italians. They did a pretty good number on it throughout the Medieval age and up until Italian unification. Plus theres the fact that Southern Italy is a completely different culture and type of place to Northern Italy. Southern Italy has more in common with basketcases such as Greece and South America than the more Franco-German influenced North, it's also totally economically useless compared to the North. If the South were like the North then Italy would rival France and the UK as the second economic power of Europe.

  17. #17
    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    It's the immigrants.

  18. #18
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    -Commercy shifted from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic ocean.
    -South Italy had a different historical development from North. Lack of industry.
    -Intervention of foreign powers. Italy was bordered by powerful kingdoms.

    Still Italy doesn't stand that bad...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  19. #19

    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    Quote Originally Posted by davide.cool
    Sicily, once the granary of Europe suffered the high taxation imposed by Piedmont (the so called law of macinato), with the result of gigantic latifundia not harvested or plowed, because farmers became so poor they had not money to plow.
    I had thought that part of this was also capitalist enterprise shifting from the wheat-growing interior to the citrus-growing coastal regions.
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  20. #20
    DAVIDE's Avatar QVID MELIVS ROMA?
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    Default Re: What happened to Italy?

    that is the historic center

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