Situation in Germany

[nahirean]

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...+as+chancellor

Can someone fill me in on how the elections are handled in Deutschland? It seems that people can simply "opt" to not leave office?

[Erik]

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...+as+chancellor

Can someone fill me in on how the elections are handled in Deutschland? It seems that people can simply "opt" to not leave office?

Of course they can't simply opt not to leave.

It's very simple realy (but still hope I have it correct, since I'm not from Germany):
The Germans elected a new parliament, and the parliament gets to appoint the new chancellor.

As often the case in a multi-party system no single party has gained an absolute majority in parliament.
So they need a coalition of several parties to form a government.
First the two biggest parties tried to form a coalition with smaller parties, but they both failed.
Now those same two biggest parties try to form a coalition together.
But they can't agree on who wil become the chancellor in this two-party coalition.

[nahirean]

Of course they can't simply opt not to leave.

It's very simple realy (but still hope I have it correct, since I'm not from Germany):
The Germans elected a new parliament, and the parliament gets to appoint the new chancellor.

As often the case in a multi-party system no single party has gained an absolute majority in parliament.
So they need a coalition of several parties to form a government.
First the two biggest parties tried to form a coalition with smaller parties, but they both failed.
Now those same two biggest parties try to form a coalition together.
But they can't agree on who wil become the chancellor in this two-party coalition.

What are the advantages of this system? Why don't they use a similar process as Americans? Use an electoral college that is based upon the majority vote for Chancellor

[Erik]

What are the advantages of this system? Why don't they use a similar process as Americans? Use an electoral college that is based upon the majority vote for Chancellor

It's democratic, that's the advantage.

They elect the parliament because the parliament (read:the people) are the higest power, not the chancellor.
Who becomes chancellor isn't realy that important except for the egos of the two candidates.

The US is a republic, not a democracy.
They elect a president who has almost absolute power for 4 years.
I am not saying this is always a disadvantage (democracies are, for example, notoriously slow in making descisions), but I prefer to live in a democracy.

[crazyhorse]

We have enough trouble here in America getting any real change accomplished with a republic. I couldn't imagine living in a democracy.

[nahirean]

It's democratic, that's the advantage.

They elect the parliament because the parliament (read:the people) are the higest power, not the chancellor.
Who becomes chancellor isn't realy that important except for the egos of the two candidates.

The US is a republic, not a democracy.
They elect a president who has almost absolute power for 4 years.
I am not saying this is always a disadvantage (democracies are, for example, notoriously slow in making descisions), but I prefer to live in a democracy.

I understand we live in a Republic. So you're saying the Chancellor is just a figurehead?

[Erik]

I understand we live in a Republic. So you're saying the Chancellor is just a figurehead?

No, he has a serious and difficult job.
He is like a CEO of a big company, controllong Germanies daily business.
But the members of parliament are like the shareholders, they vote about all the major issues.

The hierarchy looks like this:

members of parliament
|
chancellor
|
ministers
|
civil servants

[Suetonius]

It's democratic, that's the advantage.

They elect the parliament because the parliament (read:the people) are the higest power, not the chancellor.
Who becomes chancellor isn't realy that important except for the egos of the two candidates.

The US is a republic, not a democracy.
They elect a president who has almost absolute power for 4 years.
I am not saying this is always a disadvantage (democracies are, for example, notoriously slow in making descisions), but I prefer to live in a democracy.

I hardly see how he has almost absolute power. His power is checked by Congress and the Courts as their power is in turn checked by him. Nixon's "absolute power" was not absolute enough to keep him from being impeached. Nor is any president's power absolute enough to force a change in law that would allow them an unlimited term.

In addition, I do not see how having parliament elect a leader is more democratic than having the people elect the leader.

Germany is no more a democracy than America. A true democracy would be the Athenian assembly, which is made up of all adult citizens who participate in every decision made by the state (but with our more liberal and encompassing sense of "citizenship"). Or a "direct democracy" as we call it today because, in fact, a true democracy is logistically impossible in today's world where state populations number in the millions or even billions. Yes, America is a republic as the Greek's or ancient Rome would have understood it, but it is perfectly legitimate for us today to use democracy to describe both America and Germany as well as many other "republics" since a pure democracy is a standard that can be acheived only in the world of theory and philosophy but not in the real world of flesh and blood human beings.

[Kanaric]

I hardly see how he has almost absolute power. His power is checked by Congress and the Courts as their power is in turn checked by him. Nixon's "absolute power" was not absolute enough to keep him from being impeached. Nor is any president's power absolute enough to force a change in law that would allow them an unlimited term.

In addition, I do not see how having parliament elect a leader is more democratic than having the people elect the leader.

Germany is no more a democracy than America. A true democracy would be the Athenian assembly, which is made up of all adult citizens who participate in every decision made by the state (but with our more liberal and encompassing sense of "citizenship"). Or a "direct democracy" as we call it today because, in fact, a true democracy is logistically impossible in today's world where state populations number in the millions or even billions. Yes, America is a republic as the Greek's or ancient Rome would have understood it, but it is perfectly legitimate for us today to use democracy to describe both America and Germany as well as many other "republics" since a pure democracy is a standard that can be acheived only in the world of theory and philosophy but not in the real world of flesh and blood human beings.

He DOES have absolute power if he can control all 3 branches with his party. Thats how political parties are runious to the american system.

[Elu Barcino]

He's the leader of the ruling coalition, most of the time. He's still the head of government (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not really an expert on the subject).

[Boudicca]

In fact the chancellor determines the direction of politics in Germany. He's got a so called "Richtlinienkompetenz", meaning that he has the right do determine the general patterns of politics. However, initiative for new laws may come from the Parliament ("Bundestag") or the assembly of the different states (i.e. Rhineland Palatinate, Berlin etc...), or from the government formed by the chancellor. For a new law to pass, usually a majority is needed within the Parliament (Bundestag), sometimes a majority in both houses of parliament (Bundestag and Bundesrat) is needed. As the chancellor is being elected by the Bundestag, getting a majority should not be a problem for the governemnt. Usual coalitions have been SPD (Social Democrats) and "Die Grünen" (The Greens) whereas being contrasted by the CDU (Christian Democrats) and the FDP (Liberal Democrats).

Both of those usual coalitions were unable to reach a 50 % majority in Parliament following the elections. That is - in fact due to the left wing "Linkspartei" (Left - party) who has gained about 8 % of the vote making it impossible for Schröder (SPD - 34 % + Greens 8 %) or the CDU candidate Angela Merkel (CDU - 35 % + FDP 10 %) to form a government. The only chance consists in SPD + CDU = 69 % of the vote.

[Erik]

Does this "Richtlinienkompetenz" mean he can do things the parliament opposes, or can parliament turn back his actions?

And since you seem to know a lot about this:
Why doesn't anybody want to form a coalition with the Linkspartei?
Do they have such radical views?

[PacSubCom]

Does this "Richtlinienkompetenz" mean he can do things the parliament opposes, or can parliament turn back his actions?

And since you seem to know a lot about this:
Why doesn't anybody want to form a coalition with the Linkspartei?
Do they have such radical views?

Parliament is the final arbiter. Or rather, the lower and the upper houses.


And btw, Germany is a Republic, too: The Federal Republic of Germany. Aaah!


What is the advantage of this system? You can have more and more different political opinions represented in parliament.

"Opt to not leave office!" Phew! Germany is a banana republic, Schroeder simply refuses, declares martial law and all dissenters get shot!

Really, parliament decides who is chancellor, and all would have to agree on it, since no one gets the necessary majority in the lower house. Given time, they will come to an agreement, although right now nobody knows what that will be.

Merkel, speaking to the same newspaper, said, "There are two rules: The first is that the strongest party in a coalition has the right to provide the chancellor."

That is how it was handled so far. But there is no law regarding this. Theoretically, the CDU could vote for Schroeder to remain chancellor, or the SPD could vote to oust him. On the other hand, it sounds like pure fantasy that one of these two options becomes reality. The third option is to vote for someone else as chancellor, but the candidates in question are probably not known in the wider world. OR to have two people as chancellor: Ave Consul Merkel! Or that each one just rules for 2 years: Ave, Dictator Schroeder Augustus!