Earthquakes

[alhoon]

Haiti and Chile opened the Pandora's box and now all of the world is ringing like a bell.

An earthquake in Turkey and hard one at that a few days ago and today, less than 2 minutes ago, an earthquake in Athens! Not a strong one, mind you. You won't read it in the news.

Do you think we should all, as a world start investing more to disaster responce?

[PointOfViewGun]

Earthquakes happen frequently in the Eastern part of Turkey. The reason it's reported is the casualties which is only the fault of the local administration. What we need instead of disaster response investment is some actual improvement on the infrastructure of the villages and towns in the region.

[Norman Bum]

Where I live in California, Billions have been invested into making bridges and buildings earthquake-ready. Especially in regions that lay on the San Andreas fault.

I believe it is important for the world to invest more in these kind of procedures. Unfortunately, as history has shown us, governments would rather react to a situation than prepare for one.

[alhoon]

Indeed and earthquakes happen frequently in Greece and Chile too.

To improve the infrastructure of the existing homes, you need a lot of money. What I think is that the goverment should fund to a degree these repairs or strengthenings of buildings like those you mention in tectonically active areas.

I believe it is important for the world to invest more in these kind of procedures. Unfortunately, as history has shown us, governments would rather react to a situation than prepare for one.

Exactly. After a disastrous earthquake, all you hear is "Sure, we will be ready for the next time". Since it was so obvious then why didn't we were ready for this time? How about the buildings already built "weak"?

[PointOfViewGun]

Indeed and earthquakes happen frequently in Greece and Chile too.

To improve the infrastructure of the existing homes, you need a lot of money. What I think is that the goverment should fund to a degree these repairs or strengthenings of buildings like those you mention in tectonically active areas.

It wouldn't be really that expensive. The people who gave their lives in the recent earthquake were killed in mud-brick houses. They were living in very primitive villages. It's simply the incompetence of the local authorities. All our states have very formidable and talented disaster response team as well as the army is trained for such events. What we don't have are politicians who do not value human lives based on their numbers. We should have decent enough roads with decent infrastructure that would be standard from the largest city to the smallest village.

[alhoon]

How strong was the one in Athens?

Haven't found an announcement yet. Remember, it's just 6 am over here.

Maybe move this to the science forum?

But the subject is political, not scientific.

It wouldn't be really that expensive. The people who gave their lives in the recent earthquake were killed in mud-brick houses. They were living in very primitive villages. It's simply the incompetence of the local authorities. All our states have very formidable and talented disaster response team as well as the army is trained for such events. What we don't have are politicians who do not value human lives based on their numbers. We should have decent enough roads with decent infrastructure that would be standard from the largest city to the smallest village.

Now that you mention it, our army is also trained for this kind of thing and also to create infrastructure to some degree. Most of our engineers serve in the engineering part of the army.

Also since earthquakes are happening in our area very frequently these days (there was also a small earthquake yesterday afternoon in the area) you should be readying those response teams as should we.

[chamaeleo]

It wouldn't be really that expensive. The people who gave their lives in the recent earthquake were killed in mud-brick houses. They were living in very primitive villages. It's simply the incompetence of the local authorities. All our states have very formidable and talented disaster response team as well as the army is trained for such events. What we don't have are politicians who do not value human lives based on their numbers. We should have decent enough roads with decent infrastructure that would be standard from the largest city to the smallest village.

Rebuilding/retrofitting earthen buildings...not expensive? Those folks "gave their lives" for what cause exactly? How do you draw a connection between a region's predominant architecture, and "local authorities"? If a society lacks modern building materials, that's their ancestor's fault for clearcutting forests, etc. As for retrofits...they're usually more expensive than building a new structure from the ground up.

I live in a 100 year old adobe (mud-brick) house in the high-desert Southwestern US. It's far nicer than most modern homes: no AC required in the summer, minimal heating in the winter, extremely quiet interior, and lots of character. Rammed earth and adobe are about the least resource-intensive types of construction: requiring about ~1/20 of the energy needed by modern stick-frame buildings. Certainly a most appropriate technology for hot/arid regions, lacking significant local sources of lumber.

I also live in a tectonically stable region...if I still lived in Los Angeles, I'd probably opt for a stick home just like everyone else! With proper reinforcement, even earthen structures can survive most earthquakes: maybe introducing building codes, bond-beams and rebar ties to local construction vocabularies might save several thousand lives?

[PointOfViewGun]

Rebuilding/retrofitting earthen buildings...not expensive? Those folks "gave their lives" for what cause exactly? How do you draw a connection between a region's predominant architecture, and "local authorities"? If a society lacks modern building materials, that's their ancestor's fault for clearcutting forests, etc. As for retrofits...they're usually more expensive than building a new structure from the ground up.

I live in a 100 year old adobe (mud-brick) house in the high-desert Southwestern US. It's far nicer than most modern homes: no AC required in the summer, minimal heating in the winter, extremely quiet interior, and lots of character. Rammed earth and adobe are about the least resource-intensive types of construction: requiring about ~1/20 of the energy needed by modern stick-frame buildings. Certainly a most appropriate technology for hot/arid regions, lacking significant local sources of lumber.

I also live in a tectonically stable region...if I still lived in Los Angeles, I'd probably opt for a stick home just like everyone else! With proper reinforcement, even earthen structures can survive most earthquakes: maybe introducing building codes, bond-beams and rebar ties to local construction vocabularies might save several thousand lives?

I don't really understand how you're talking against my argument than use the same argument yourself. Just north of Elazığ where the the recent earthquake occurred more than 30 thousand people died in 1939. Back then they didn't have the technology to prevent those deaths but today they do. It was the responsibility of the local authorities to enforce the building codes rather than ignoring small settlements. Maybe a mud-brick house is perfect for reasons you've mentioned but it's not in a region very well known to be unstable. A lot more earthquakes happen but it depends on the number of casualties to be reported.

[chamaeleo]

I don't really understand how you're talking against my argument than use the same argument yourself. Just north of Elazığ where the the recent earthquake occurred more than 30 thousand people died in 1939. Back then they didn't have the technology to prevent those deaths but today they do. It was the responsibility of the local authorities to enforce the building codes rather than ignoring small settlements. Maybe a mud-brick house is perfect for reasons you've mentioned but it's not in a region very well known to be unstable. A lot more earthquakes happen but it depends on the number of casualties to be reported.

Reinforced adobe is expensive. In a region which cannot even afford decent roads to import the materials required for proper construction, the means to safeguard one's home are simply unavailable even if peasants had the time/energy/money to do so. As for enforcement of code...does a code even exist in the first place? Will inspectors really force the populace to adhere, given their poverty? I honestly do not know which would be worse: allowing them to die in homes they built themselves, or forcing upon them expectations that are virtually impossible for them to follow.

I say educate the local construction industry on modern adobe building methods, through workshops, and let them assess the cost vs risk for themselves.

[Chlodwig I.]

Rebuilding/retrofitting earthen buildings...not expensive? Those folks "gave their lives" for what cause exactly? How do you draw a connection between a region's predominant architecture, and "local authorities"? If a society lacks modern building materials, that's their ancestor's fault for clearcutting forests, etc. As for retrofits...they're usually more expensive than building a new structure from the ground up.

I live in a 100 year old adobe (mud-brick) house in the high-desert Southwestern US. It's far nicer than most modern homes: no AC required in the summer, minimal heating in the winter, extremely quiet interior, and lots of character. Rammed earth and adobe are about the least resource-intensive types of construction: requiring about ~1/20 of the energy needed by modern stick-frame buildings. Certainly a most appropriate technology for hot/arid regions, lacking significant local sources of lumber.

I also live in a tectonically stable region...if I still lived in Los Angeles, I'd probably opt for a stick home just like everyone else! With proper reinforcement, even earthen structures can survive most earthquakes: maybe introducing building codes, bond-beams and rebar ties to local construction vocabularies might save several thousand lives?

What do you consider modern homes?
And what is a Stick-Frame Building?

[ShADoW]

How strong was the one in Athens?

[Kjertesvein]

Maybe move this to the science forum?

[Exarch]

i'm in taiwan right now and we had an earthquake last wednesday-the biggest one since 1900; i'd say that's worthy of some looking into

[alhoon]

Why is this thread moved, when the topic is 1. political 2. about recent and ongoing events?

[♔Jean-Luc Picard♔]

I for one do not think that we should panic about some unrelated incidents. There is no evidence that the earthquakes are related by anything other than proximity in time to one another. The only reason any of the ones other than Chile and Haiti are making the news is that it is the new horror story and it sells well.

Why is this thread moved, when the topic is 1. political 2. about recent and ongoing events?

1. It really isn't that political, its a hypothetical question about what are probably unrelated events. 2. Current events either wind up in the TD or in another relevant section. This one is sciency so here it is.

[alhoon]

Do you think we should all, as a world start investing more to disaster responce?

That's a question on measures that should be taken.

And there's no science in this.

Perhaps it's better for the political academy since it's a generic question, but it ties with (perhaps) unrelated events, although I believe Turkey's earthquake and ours are related. About Chile and Haiti... that's a political question about what we should have learned.

[Simetrical]

Moved from Athenaeum back to Political Academy by request of thread starter. (Actually, he didn't clearly say what forum he wanted it in, so I guessed.) There are some scientific aspects to this question, but also policy questions, so it would make some sense in either forum depending on emphasis.

[alhoon]

20k died in 1939?! No wonder Turkey remained neutral in WW2.

Are you sure? The figure is extremely high. How much was the population in the area back then? 1/3 of what it's today?

[PointOfViewGun]

Reinforced adobe is expensive. In a region which cannot even afford decent roads to import the materials required for proper construction, the means to safeguard one's home are simply unavailable even if peasants had the time/energy/money to do so. As for enforcement of code...does a code even exist in the first place? Will inspectors really force the populace to adhere, given their poverty? I honestly do not know which would be worse: allowing them to die in homes they built themselves, or forcing upon them expectations that are virtually impossible for them to follow.

I say educate the local construction industry on modern adobe building methods, through workshops, and let them assess the cost vs risk for themselves.

There are many prefabricated material options that can be used and they're not that expensive. It can all be manufactured in Turkey with resources from Turkey. The government(TOKI) lately creates many projects but I've heard hardly any projects in the East. First of all if the roads are not decent enough to transport most basic materials then that's another failure of the local authorities. Turkey is facing one of the highest unemployment rates so lack of workforce is not a problem in the region. There are laws that came into play after the earthquake in the 1999 but I'm not sure about it's extent. It's not impossible in any way neither expensive. So I don't get why you're against this.

20k died in 1939?! No wonder Turkey remained neutral in WW2.

Are you sure? The figure is extremely high. How much was the population in the area back then? 1/3 of what it's today?

30,962 people died in Erzincan back in 1939. It was a 7.9 earthquake that went on for 52 seconds; strongest earthquake in the history of Republic of Turkey. The entire city was destroyed. The city of Erzincan today is not the same city but was built after the earthquake. I don't know the population of the city back then.

[JP226]

Global warming