Roman legionary defense points

[Kiyan_the_Great]

This is another roman legionary post, sorry guys, but i was wondering, based on the roman's essential use of their strong shields, shouldn't they at least have a superior defense points in comparison to many other heavy infantries, such as phalanxes, as far as i can see roman shields are superior to hellenic shields ? i personally always have difficulty fighting selucids with the romans,
their cataphracts and phalanxes just over power the legionary too easy, and i was wondering if that was historically the case, and if it was then how come the selucids vanish in face of roman might,
or may be im doing something wrong perhaps?
thank you!

[torongill]

The Seleucid empire was too big and unstable for its own good. Parthia and Baktria were actually parts of the Seleucid empire before they gained independence. The Seleucid rulers also were engaged in conflicts with the Indians and Ptolomaic Egypt, as well as trying to put out various revolts against the central government. Maybe the mistake of Seleucus and his successors was that they sought expansion ala Alexander the Great, whereas what they had to do was stabilizing the government and absorbtion of the territories.
The Roman victory at Thermopylae over Antiochus III the Great was nothing more than the victorious army seeing some units retreat and turning to flee. One could argue that if Antiochus had put more forces and watched more carefully the mountain paths, he could have held against the romans and probably even won a nice victory.
If we are to believe Livius, At Magnesia the King and his cavalry managed to rout the Roman left, then foolishly followed the retreating romans to their camp where they fought an inconclusive battle. At the same time the Roman Allies, stationed on the right, used their light infantry to terrify the Seleucid scythed chariots(made them run amok), which then proceeded to smash in the Seleucid left and routed it. Then the centers collided. The Seleucid phalanx held the Roman advance, who knows, maybe even stopped it dead, beat off the attacking Roman right and generally proved their salt until in the end the Seleucid elephants, which the King in his infinite, unfathomable and incomprihensible (lack of) wisdom had put between the phalanx brigades, panicked and crashed into the pike squares, which broke. My point is, the Romans didn't really have it easy against the Seleucids, if you look objectively.

Still, the shield stats of the phalangitai are too much if you ask me. You can tone them down to 3 or even vanilla like 2. The stats for missiles are decreased drastically compared to vanilla and the other mods, so even with the decreased shield value it's very difficult to decimate a phalanx unit by firing at it from the front.
About the cataphtacts, well, use as many ap units as possible, include as many slingers as possible. This is how the Romans did it and let me tell you, the cataphracts die quite well under a hail of slingshot.
Oh, and one more thing. You don't need to break through their phalanx from the front. That's like climbing over high wall instead of simply moving around it, which you need to do.
Remember the example and spirit of Epaminondas and Alexander - do not look for total superiority. Instead identify a spot where you know you can break through and smash it fast and hard. Then attack the phalanx units from the flank while pinning them from the front. You don't have to do this simultaneously all along the line. Pin, attack from the flank and rear and when you rout it, proceed down the line.
For example - say you see that the enemy right flank is not so strong and that you can defeat it quick. Concentrate you best mobile troops on your left Attack it, while your center advances at the oblique(echelon to the right, visually looks like a ladder) to minimise frontal contact with the phalanx. When you've smashed through the enemy right, turn your attention to his center: pin the nearest phalanx from the front and attack them from the rear, preferably after unleashing some javelin rain on them. Hit them until they break. Then pin and hit the next closest enemy unit. You might ask, what about the enemy left and center? Well, you refuse your center and right as much as possible. Do not allow the enemy to gain the initiative. You have to lure him, force him commit. The above mentioned example with slinger rain: shoot at the cataphracts. If you manage to do it well enough either the cataphracts will advance to scare your slingers or they'll be massacred. Once they're in pursuit, charge them with heavy spearmen, surround them from all sides and then kill them. Stationary cavalry is dead cavalry.
It's not pretty and glamourous or glorious, but it works. And the way I see it, there's nothing glamorous about attacking phalanxes head-on. Actually it's pretty grimy business.

P.S. I know i'm annoying you already, but you must tailor your army according to the enemy. I cannot stress this enough. Attacking with a stack that is 19 legionaries and 1 FM is a recipe for disaster. Crassus did it and paid for it at Carrhae with his life.

[ISA Gunner]

Kiyan, i too have found that the legionaries are bit too weak for my liking. I have tweaked the stats of them by adding +3 to their defence skill in the EDU. Their ability to survive has gone up quite a bit and i'm content with them now. They are no longer underpowered against phalangites and elite heavy infantry of other nations but they're not overpowered either. But attacking a phalanx head on is stupid.

My Marian army consists of 1 Family Member, 1 First Cohort, 1 Veterans Cohort (which has 200 soldiers instead of 160), 6 Legionary Cohorts, 2 Elite Legionaries (the spear ones but with only 100 men each), 2 Auxiliary cavalry (Thracian, Hispanic etc.) and then some non-Roman Heavy Infantry/Spearmen, Light Infantry and Skirmishers to protect the flanks of the Legion and provide support.

I use half my Cohorts to pin down the Enemy heavy infantry/phalanx while my Auxiliary cavalry and Allied units drive back enemy flankers. I then flank the enemy line with my Elite Legionaries and Allies and smash them from the rear and sides. At that point i send in my second, reserve line of Cohorts to charge the front of the enemy which is tired and relatively broken formation wise by now. And lastly i charge my Auxiliary cavalry and Family member into their rear. If they haven't routed already, they do so very quickly.

[dbug]

maybe i should be playing around with my EDU in a bit too...
the phalangites are alright, but the legionaries are a bit too weak, like what ISA Gunner said

[Titus Maximius Thongus]

the strength of the roman legionary is in their ability to be mass-recruited. very few factions have such open access to dependable, decent (but not uber super) heavy infantry