Population of Greece during 5th century BC?

[rusina]

Just wondering.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

According to this: http://press.umsystem.edu/fall2006/hansen.htm
"in the age of Alexander the Great, the population of all the Greek city-states must have totaled some 8-10 million people"
(I haven't read the book, just the summary)

[conon394]

Depending on what estimate you like and what you include 2-3 million.

You can find a nice discussion here by Ian Morris at the PSWPC site in this paper: The Athenian Empire (478-404 BC)

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/morris/120508.pdf

(section 5.2 pg 25-28)

The range does vary widely however and Morris is for example using a low number for Athens - Mogens Hansen more recently argues for an Athenian adult male population closer to 60,000 ~430 BC.

edit: see like I said (referring to Seleucos' Post) M Hansen has generally in recent years argued for significantly higher figures than many or even his earlier work.

[rusina]

Thanks guys.

[conon394]

Personally I find Hansen very convincing - he is very through and for someplace like Athens he makes a solid argument that the usual thumbnail numbers have been based on some rather casual work that failed to consider several factors.

[Arch-hereticK]

4

[rusina]

4

Interesting.

[Arch-hereticK]

Interesting.

It's your job to prove me wrong.
If you can't, I'm right.

[rusina]

It's your job to prove me wrong.
If you can't, I'm right.

There were 300 Spartans in Thermopylai.

HA!

[Banana Jelly]

5,000,001

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

In "The Wars of the Ancient Greeks" Victor Davis Hanson gives a number of about 1,000,000 around the time of the Persian invasions. In "Carnage and Culture" the same author gives an estimation of "less than 2,000,000" for the same period.

[alhoon]

The Greek states... what does that include? And 10 million seems too high. In early Byzantine times, a thousand years later the population of present Greece would be about 2 millions or so.

But at 5th century BC, Greek states would include Asia minor and perhaps parts of Southern Italy or Sicily.

[conon394]

The Greek states... what does that include? And 10 million seems too high. In early Byzantine times, a thousand years later the population of present Greece would be about 2 millions or so.

Yet that is not necessarily informative look at Ireland from say 1700-2000 a simple trend would never capture the actual peak and collapse of the islands pop.

But at 5th century BC, Greek states would include Asia minor and perhaps parts of Southern Italy or Sicily.

As I recall the Shotgun Method considers pretty much every single polis or quasi-Hellenistic area right before Alexanders conquests. Thus part of the fact of why his number is high is that he includes Greek cities around the Black Sea in the far west for example that many similar estimates don't really account for (and I think he also includes at least some area in Macedonian and Epirus for example).

[alhoon]

As I recall the Shotgun Method considers pretty much every single polis or quasi-Hellenistic area right before Alexanders conquests. Thus part of the fact of why his number is high is that he includes Greek cities around the Black Sea.

In the black sea? Then we're talking about the population of Greeks in 5th century not the population of Greece

(and I think he also includes at least some area in Macedonian and Epirus for example).

Both Macedonia and Epirus were inhabited by Greeks in 5th century BC.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

Both Macedonia and Epirus were inhabited by Greeks in 5th century BC.

But far from exclusively by Greeks.

[alhoon]

But far from exclusively by Greeks.

Epirus had Illyrians, but were there Persians in Macedonia? I thought it was just us there. Also I'm not sure Illyrians weren't Greeks, or at least heavily Greek-related.

[rusina]

I have one more question: What was the population of Persian Empire during that same era?

[Seleucos of Olympia]

There was a thread about that here just over a year ago: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=225318

[Seleucos of Olympia]

Illyrians aren't considered Greeks (nor were they by the ancient Greeks). Macedonia expanded into Thracian and Paionian territories, so we can factor an influence from those populations. See here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d_environs.png

[conon394]

In the black sea? Then we're talking about the population of Greeks in 5th century not the population of Greece

Which only makes sense the Greeks would include all colonies and by the 4th century many would also include hellenized states (see Isocrates) [and ignore Demosthenes - he was trying to rally an anti Macedonian alliance - you can bet your last drachma if Persia or Carthage, not Macedonia was a mortal peril to Athens he would sing the praises of Phillip morning noon and night.]