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  1. #1

    Default Decapitate capitalism?

    Decapitate capitalism?

    yup, another one of those threads...

    If the members of household’s living standards are not being upheld by its income, then they live beyond their means. The first or most effective way to address this is to lower or remove its most extravagant expenditure. The next is to spread any disproportionate contributions to that household. Let us imagine that whole economies are similar to the given household, and suggest a way to redress its imbalances. It seams to me that a massive percentage of wealth is attributed to a tiny percentage of people, we can see how this works in the charts below, and here we are taking America [USA] as our example.

    If we ‘decapitated’ capitalism and spread its resources more evenly, then would the result be a more universally efficient society, one where most people are better off. Then from this standpoint would the communal pool of wealth grow exponentially for all its members.

    The most worrying thing for me is that gradually the less better off are loosing ground to the most wealthy! it is clear that any kind of equalising factors capitalism promotes itself as having, are quite simply not true.

    goto 'conclusion' if you dont wish to read all that supports my reasoning, or already know the figures.

    Here are some calculations of monetary distributions from a 2007 study:

    a, Top 1 percent; 42.7%
    b, Next 19 percent; 50.3%
    c, Bottom 80 percent; 7.0%


    http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesam...er/wealth.html

    Notice that on the charts provide [on the site above] the percentage of wealth concerning the bottom 80% has gone down since 1893 - 2007!

    We now use an algorithm to distribute the wealth from the top 1% (a) to the other two groups (b, and c), that would of course only give us a mathematical figure for the redistribution of said wealth. This would clearly show that the bottom two groups would be far better off! We also have to take into consideration that the top 1% buys things and invests its money to some degree. My argument is that such a massive proportion of funds, money that most of the community works hard for, not just that 1%, would be more beneficial if utilised by and for the entire community. Extravagance and luxury are the least efficient ways to spend that money, and such massive funds should not be utilised at the whim of individuals [weather they ’earn’ it or not [I don’t think anyone can earn that amount of money]], who may spend their wealth either abroad or on goods that bring comparatively little or nothing to the communal pool of wealth.

    If for example you earn your money in Britain then move abroad to a tax haven e.g. like Monaco, then the money is not being redistributed via taxation [circular/communal moneys], and it is entirely remove from the pool in which it is earned. This is the equivalent of making gaping holes in the communal pool of wealth, of which all our work and finance is put into. The same applies to a degree as concerns extravagance and luxury, if e.g. beyonce buys gold trousers worth 1,000,000 pounds, that is a waste of money that could be used more efficiently. Equally if someone spends thousands/millions on coke, then that to is an extravagance which wastes our money and worse puts it into the hands of criminals, making them more powerful and putting our children at higher risk of drug abuse.

    From the site…

    In terms of types of financial wealth, the top one percent of households have 38.3% of all privately held stock, 60.6% of financial securities, and 62.4% of business equity. The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate. Since financial wealth is what counts as far as the control of income-producing assets, WE CAN SAY THAT JUST 10% OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES ‘OWN’ THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

    On a side note see also;
    Figure 3: Income and wealth by race in the U.S.
    The system is clearly racist to some degree, although it must be noted that the whites built the economy [even if it did use slaves] to begin with, therefore the wealth would naturally be distributed via inheritance. To call this racist is perhaps going to far, it is simply that one group got there first and built the nation into what it became.

    If you see the chart here…
    Table 3: Share of wealth held by the Bottom 99% and Top 1% in the United States, 1922-2007.

    It seams that recessions are a good thing for reducing the wealth at the top, unfortunately it also reduces wealth across the board.

    See also this section….
    Table 7: Share of capital income flowing to households in various income categories

    In 1979 the top 1% had 37.8% of wealth, while the bottom 80% had 23.1%, yet by 2003 this had been reduced for the masses to, 12.6% [top 1% up to 57.5%] almost exactly half of what it was in 79’!


    Conclusion; there is only so much validation to inherited wealth, being that it is not earned but more importantly, that if we hold to the principle;

    ‘everyone has the right to become more successful, and that it is potentially possible for anyone to get to the top’

    It then follows that any kind of inheritance is hording wealth and position, and denies the very principle one got to the top with originally.

    As it is natural to pass wealth down to ones descendants and friends, and to horde wealth for ones own [said group], it also follows that eventually the balance must eventually be redressed! There comes either a point where the top positions are so stifled by hording and holding positions within a circle/group, that there is no fluidity in them. The nearer we get to that the more like a feudal society we become [in a manner], and an aristocracy is created ~ in this way. There also comes a time for example ’now’, where the moneys are needed to bring the wealth of the masses up to a position where they live to a reasonable standard, and that the principle of capitalist freedom becomes again valid [if it ever was?].

    Ideally we should create mechanisms by which wealth cannot be horded to such a massive degree, and that the 1% [at least] is automatically returned to the communal pool. By redistributing wealth, the pool may grow exponentially faster than with less universally efficient systems, which in return would provide for more success for more people, but not to the degree by which that success returns us to the hyper rich situation of the current 1%.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    What effect does some guy with 200 million in family wealth have on my life?

    Being its not a zero sum game, really nothing.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  3. #3
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    No, no, no Phier. That guy with the 200 million is keeping you from earning 76k instead of 66k. Because he's evil. And there's a finite amount of productive work, a finite amount of creativity, and a finite amount of opportunity.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  4. #4
    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Gross oversimplification win?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Phier

    What effect does some guy with 200 million in family wealth have on my life?
    If you add the wealth of the said 1%, [or more] between the rest of us then quite a lot, do the math, it is really quite a considerable amount.

    Jingle_Bombs

    Gross oversimplification win?
    Math wins, truth wins. The fact and figures tell the story without me even needing to get all moral about it, the most universally efficient system is one where wealth is spread more evenly. My task is made easy by the sheer scale of difference extant in the world.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  6. #6
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    KISS rule.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  7. #7
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    truth wins
    Ideally we should create mechanisms by which wealth cannot be horded
    hoarder - One who hoards; one who accumulates, collects, and stores

    The top 10 percent of earners pay 71% of income tax revenue.
    The top 10 percent of earners account for 22 percent of all spending, for instance, according to Moody’s Economy.com. The top 25 percent of all earners account for 45 percent of spending. The bottom 50 percent of earners, by contrast, spend just 29 percent of all the money in the consumer economy.

    How's that for hoarding?

    Edit: oh yah, there's this

    The S.C.C.B.S. indicates that the wealthiest 10 percent of households are responsible for at least a quarter of all money contributed to charity, including a fifth of what is funneled to religious organizations and about a third of what goes to secular causes. Philanthropy scholars consistently find that households with total income exceeding $1 million (about 7 percent of the U.S. population) account for about half of all charitable donations. Simply put, your local United Way would probably close down were it not for the rich people in your community
    Last edited by xcorps; March 05, 2010 at 03:17 PM.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    xcorps

    The top 10 percent of earners pay 71% of income tax revenue
    .

    that’s a contrived deduction as you well know. They don’t literally pay 71% tax, thay just have so much money that they pay that percentage of all tax revenues.

    The top 10 percent of earners account for 22 percent of all spending, for instance, according to Moody’s Economy.com. The top 25 percent of all earners account for 45 percent of spending. The bottom 50 percent of earners, by contrast, spend just 29 percent of all the money in the consumer economy.
    Now there’s a surprise, people who don’t earn much don’t buy much, where 80% of households only hold 7% of the wealth, ..I am shocked.

    Let us not forget what they spend money on, luxury and extravagance, the more we go up the scale of luxury the greater the difference between its worth and the amount of people employed in making it.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    There is not a finite amount of wealth. One guy having 200 million is not preventing anybody from having wealth too.
    It is finite but open ended [still potentially limited to some degree], if you really think we can all be millionaires you need to do the math, each business owner has to have people who will make their product etc.

    You cannot punish somebody if they haven't committed a crime.
    They did in the french and Russian revolutions, it depends on if you think the wealthy are creaming off the poor ~ if they are actually thieves. Besides it is a greater good that makes the vast majority of people better off.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Who, in our society, is prohibited from obtaining wealth?
    99% by the looks of things. Unless you really think that everyone can become as rich as them? Capitalism is like a pyramid, there are only so many places at the top.

    you will find that most of us are prohibited in degrees, there is but a slim change we can get to the top, but no chance that all or even many of us can.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  11. #11
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    99% by the looks of things. Unless you really think that everyone can become as rich as them? Capitalism is like a pyramid, there are only so many places at the top.

    you will find that most of us are prohibited in degrees, there is but a slim change we can get to the top, but no chance that all or even many of us can.
    So you prefer a society where everyone is limited to the lowest common denominator. Good luck with that.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  12. #12
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Decapitate capitalism?

    yup, another one of those threads...

    If the members of household’s living standards are not being upheld by its income, then they live beyond their means. The first or most effective way to address this is to lower or remove its most extravagant expenditure. The next is to spread any disproportionate contributions to that household. Let us imagine that whole economies are similar to the given household, and suggest a way to redress its imbalances. It seams to me that a massive percentage of wealth is attributed to a tiny percentage of people, we can see how this works in the charts below, and here we are taking America [USA] as our example.

    If we ‘decapitated’ capitalism and spread its resources more evenly, then would the result be a more universally efficient society, one where most people are better off. Then from this standpoint would the communal pool of wealth grow exponentially for all its members.
    But hang on we have been doing that for seventy years or more. That is why we don't have actual purist capitalism but this mixed economy that everyone on this forum loves so much. How many decades of the forced collection and redistribution of wealth and resources and it has had the opposite effect. The free market advocates like myself will tell you that the government causes poverty, that redistribution has the opposite effect to the intended. The Anarchosyndicallists will say that capitalism is flawed and immoral, along with property rights and that would level society.

    Then the people who suggest the same thing that has been tried for decades and failed, perhaps if we improve the failed methods slightly things will get better.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    xcorps

    The only math you have shows how everyone cannot become wealthy.
    Therefore not anyone can become wealthy. let us not toy with the semantics eh.

    So you prefer a society where everyone is limited to the lowest common denominator.
    No, you can still be as rich as the non 1% of rich people, I propose only a hill instead of a pyramid - so to say. I just don’t think anyone can earn that amount of wealth as the top 1% has, and that if you take from the communal pool you should give to it to ~ or else it is stealing. We are not talking about the lowest common denominator, perhaps you should use your terms more wisely.

    Denny Crane!

    that redistribution has the opposite effect to the intended.
    This is one of my main points, when you redistribute it creates more wealth, in the current system that means you put more back into the top but the bottom doesn’t change much. In fact the top as you will see by the charts, grws bigger in comparison to the bottom. What you need to do is bleed the top 1% of wealth back into the communal pool in a continual motion. It is not redistribution that is flawed but its current and former method.

    The Anarchosyndicallists will say that capitalism is flawed and immoral, along with property rights and that would level society.
    That would be the flat plain I spoke of in the op, we don’t want that for sure. I am not an anarchist but a universalist, the difference is that I propose the most universally efficient system, so that the vast majority of people will be better off, and there would actually be many more rich people. A hill has a greater volume at its apex than a pyramid.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Bleda

    Let us imagine that whole economies are similar to grapefruit or firetrucks while we're at it.
    Not the same comparative... i use it to show how some people are using up way to much of 'our' recourses, whilst the rest of us suffer.

    You're making broad theories about whole national and supranational economies based on the behavior of the 'average' household unit.
    It’s a simple analogy, I go on to point out what the facts and theory are.

    Goto the conclusion ~ its seams no one is understanding the fundamental flaw in capitalist ideology.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  15. #15
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Denny Crane!



    This is one of my main points, when you redistribute it creates more wealth, in the current system that means you put more back into the top but the bottom doesn’t change much. In fact the top as you will see by the charts, grws bigger in comparison to the bottom. What you need to do is bleed the top 1% of wealth back into the communal pool in a continual motion. It is not redistribution that is flawed but its current and former method.
    No when you redistribute you actually distort markets and distort wealth creation. Giving away money or services isn't always a good idea, in fact I'd be hard pressed to say it ever works not to mention the fact that it is immoral.


    That would be the flat plain I spoke of in the op, we don’t want that for sure. I am not an anarchist but a universalist, the difference is that I propose the most universally efficient system, so that the vast majority of people will be better off, and there would actually be many more rich people. A hill has a greater volume at its apex than a pyramid.
    That is the reason I'm a free market advocate. I don't just think about this country either.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    There is not a finite amount of wealth. One guy having 200 million is not preventing anybody from having wealth too.

    You cannot punish somebody if they haven't committed a crime. The right to property is a fundamental right. and one that should never be infringed.

  17. #17
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by 43rdFoot View Post
    There is not a finite amount of wealth. One guy having 200 million is not preventing anybody from having wealth too.

    You cannot punish somebody if they haven't committed a crime. The right to property is a fundamental right. and one that should never be infringed.

    Simple question here, and one that should deconstruct the entire RoW arguement.

    Who, in our society, is prohibited from obtaining wealth?
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by 43rdFoot View Post
    There is not a finite amount of wealth.
    Umm, there is a finite and quickly shrinking amount of resources, which capitalism concentrates creativity towards consuming even faster. Live in your dream world, but there's only so much water and oil to be found and so much food the world can produce.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    ^^ + a quickly growing and developing world population.

    jp266

    sure there isnt an exact finite amount of wealth, but it is limited to some degree.

    i suppose people who deal in stock n shares dont understand what value is in real terms, so they see infinite potential without realising it comes from earned wealth. jk i know its not that simple, but money isnt infinite.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  20. #20
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Decapitate capitalism?

    if you really think we can all be millionaires you need to do the math, each business owner has to have people who will make their product etc.
    But you can be a millionare. There are thousands of ways to do so legally. You can buy a lottery ticket. You can go on a game show. You can participate in professional sports. You can become a movie star. You can invent a product that has high demand. (swizzle sticks anyone?) You can invest wisely. You can start a business.

    There's no math that shows that anyone cannot become wealthy.

    The only math you have shows how everyone cannot become wealthy.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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